Tuesday, March 2, 2010

Farewell SPAMLDS

Greg West, the expert on anti-Mormonism, is retiring.

He wrote a lengthy final post outlining the last two years of SPAM. It is full of his same old stuff.


"Anti-Mormonism is just hate."

"Everyone who opposes the church is full of bitterness and hate."

"We have all the truth."

"They fight against us because the church is true."

"I have debunked every anti-Mormon claim I have ever come across."

"Anti-Mormons are angry, miserable people."

Even in his last post, he pours on the arrogance nice and thick. He has seen it all. He knows it all.

Defend your myth! Protect your con-artist. You can have a testimony of Joseph Smith all day but it doesn't change what he really was...

If SPAM has proven anything, it is that the Mormon testimony is always the fallback. It is that Mormons know it all. It is that the propaganda about church critics is plain untrue.

The truth must be defended. One ounce of pro-Mormon evidence equals 900 tons of anti-Mormon evidence. As long as some answer exists, it is good enough.

Greg, I'm sure you'll be back. I'm sure you'll be cockier than ever. But until then, farewell. You've given me a lot to bitch about.

If you have answered every anti-Mormon claim, how do you explain the lack of inspiration from your precious prophet regarding natural disasters, especially the two most recent earthquakes that have killed thousands of people?

Have fun explaining that one!

I'm sure he won't respond to it just for me, but if he did, he would say something like:

"That's not what prophets are all about. They warn people of spiritual dangers, not natural disasters. Besides, you're an anti-Mormon, therefore you are full of hate and bitterness. Therefore I won't waste my time talking to you because all you want is a sign and the scriptures say that asking for signs is wrong. And since you're asking for a sign, you are wrong."

Explain it away all day, but it doesn't change the FACT that no LDS leader has ever correctly predicted a natural disaster.

In your TBM mind, SPAM has emerged victorious over all the spawns of hell. To your little band of 400 censored members you are a hero. But who's going to remember you in 100 years?


To sum up Greg's undying arrogance, here is the final paragraph of his final post:

"Anti-Mormonism tacitly testifies, by its determined opposition, that we possess those keys and that authority, and that we are exactly what they say we are. If it were not so, they would not oppose us with such fervor. You can take that to the bank. The Church is true. It is directed by Jesus Christ through apostles and prophets. It contains the keys, rights, powers, and authority that appertain to the kingdom of God. It is not "a" Christian Church. It is THE Church of Jesus Christ. All others are pretenders. That is the message of the Father and the Son to this dispensation. Latter-day saints will find great comfort and blessings in standing as close to that core truth as they can possibly get. Joseph Smith was a prophet. Thomas S. Monson is a prophet today. The Book of Mormon and the revelations are true. I bear witness of these things with all my heart in the name of Jesus Christ. Be well and God bless!"

Let me sum it up:

Because they oppose us, that means we really are true!

This is not "a" church; this is THE church. Everyone else is a cheap imitation.

Greg may have learned a lot of things in his little "exposing anti-Mormonism" pilgrimage, but humility is certainly not one of them.


Paul said...

Well said 411,

SPAM sounds like an unreasonable apologist... But if he's really debunked every Anti-Mormon claim then I should check out his site and get converted to the LDS Church ASAP :P

Mormon411 said...

I would encourage you to read his site. I've put a link to it on the side bar. He will either convince you that the church is true OR he will convince you that he is just an extreme apologist.

Best of luck in your search for truth.

Seth R. said...

I'm kind of curious... what if Thomas Monson did stand up in General Conference and predict, say... a massive earthquake in Japan or somewhere? Accurate down to the exact date.

What would you make of that?

Brian said...

I can tell you what I would make of it. Nothing, just because someone can predict something (umm Nostradamus, et. al.) doesn't make them any kind of prophet of god or anything else. Psychics have been selling their snake oil for hundreds of years. Are they prophets of god? NO. Neither is "Godfather Monson"

Seth R. said...

That's pretty-much the same way I feel about "predictions" Brian, but I was wondering if Mormon411 was of the same opinion, since he brought up the last two earthquakes as a specific point.

Mormon411 said...

That's a great question, Seth, and I hadn't even thought about it until you asked.

To be honest, I would be pretty darn impressed. I'd still be skeptical until he did it time after time with complete accuracy each time.

When I began my "quest" out of the church, the lack of Hinckley's warning about the tsunami and Hurricane Katrina was a major factor in my realization that he was not a prophet.

It's one thing to claim to be able to see the future...

It's another thing entirely to actually do it.

Seth R. said...

The thing is, I would NOT be impressed.

Even if Thomas S. Monson were to accurately nail each and EVERY natural disaster for the next ten years, it would not change my opinion about him at all. And I would try to talk you out of it if you expressed a desire to sign back up for Mormonism based on those predictions.

So what if Monson can predict the future?

What does that have to do with what I worship?

For all I know, he could be getting the information from Satan (I've heard plenty of Evangelicals explain-away some of the stuff Mormons have done with this appeal). Or maybe he's simply getting info from a bunch of aliens. Or maybe he's just mystically tapped into "Mother Earth" or some New Age whatever.

What does that have to do with my faith life?

And what if Thomas S. Monson does get a hot tip from God about a earthquake in Pakistan, or predict a Chinese invasion of Taiwan sparking World War III? What if the info really is from a godlike being?

So what?

Who says I have to worship such a being?

What if God teleported the Golden Gate Bridge onto the Wyoming plains as a gesture of how powerful he is? What if Jesus had left a magically suspended rock hanging over the Sea of Galilee as some sort of divine graffiti ("Jesus was here")?

What does this actually matter as to your worship life or mine?

Do you worship a being just because he can do magic tricks? Or because he has super powers? Or because he has the power to punish you?

Do you worship Harry Potter, Superman, or the Godfather?

I don't. And I don't think you should either.

Let me state it plainly.

The fact of Thomas S. Monson predicting the next dozen disasters is utterly irrelevant to a person's faith. Merely performing miracles is not absolute proof of who you should worship. The mere existence of the Gold Plates (if you could establish it) does not prove Mormonism.

I follow Mormonism because I deeply agree with and have internalized the principles it teaches. I worship God because of the loving relationship I have established with him. Not because he has a big stick.

So, if God does decide to teleport the Golden Gate Bridge tomorrow, I call on all atheists everywhere who claim to have a spine to cross their arms and refuse to worship a God who has to resort to cheap magic tricks to earn respect. If that's all God's got, then he doesn't have my vote. And he shouldn't have yours either. You need much, much more than that.

Mormon411 said...

Very well said, Seth. I completely respect that.

Mormon411 said...


As I have thought about your last comment over the last few days, I realize that I mostly agree with you on this one.

You're completely right in that god should not gain converts by using cheap magic tricks.

Naturally, there are other things that prophets are supposed to do besides predict the future all day long.

Predicting natural disasters should be just a part of the job. Along with that, should be all the other things that prophets do.

I find it interesting that people try to make it sound like it's no big deal if the current prophet doesn't prophesy, or heal, or predict the future.

But on the same hand, they will talk about Joseph Smith and all the miracles he supposedly did. So do they do miracles or don't they?

It seems to me that we always hear stories about miracles, but never actually see any. I could go on and on about it so I'll stop here.

Seth R. said...

Well, I won't lie to you. It's something that bugs me about the modern LDS Church too.

But I'm not willing to automatically write-off the LDS general authorities just because they aren't entertaining enough.

But to this day, I haven't ruled out the possibility of the modern LDS Church having its own period of apostasy.

Mind, I don't see compelling evidence for it yet. But I haven't ruled it out either.

Mormon411 said...

It's very refreshing to me to see that you are at least open minded to the possibility.

The FLDS church believes that the LDS has apostatized because they have separated themselves from several of Joseph Smith's original doctrines.

What would you consider to be "compelling evidence"?

Brian said...

I know I haven't posted to this string in a while. That's my fault. I have enjoyed all the points of view I am seeing here. I have to tell you I left the LDS faith not so much because I was disillusioned by anything I found out about the church or it's lack of credible evidence that it has ANYTHING to do with an actual (read existing) God. I left the faith because I realized that no matter how hard I tried to believe, I couldn't bring myself to do it.

The more I searched and tried to find meaning and faith, the MORE I found empty promises and BS.

I left because there was nothing substantial to belief in a god or gods or the panties of a goddess. whatever you choose to believe in. I found that none of it really matters, it's all smoke and mirrors designed to control and deceive the members of religious groups into paying their money and volunteering their time for the betterment of the faith. Using the guise of their need to improve their "eternal soul" ...

simply put. IT's CRAP... If you want to believe it, feel free.


Mormon411 said...

I did believe it for far too long. Do you know where I first lost my testimony? In Sunday school.

We were having a lesson and were talking about Jesus walking on water. I had an epiphany that it was all make believe. And while I later tried to shelve that doubt, it was too late.

Once you realize that Christianity is no different than any other myth or belief system (the only difference is the names and dates) then the natural consequence is that none of its sects are true by default, including Mormonism.

ADD TO THAT the many problems and bloopers of Mormon history and it becomes crystal clear that the LDS church is not true.

Like Brian said, believe it if you want to. But now you at least know the reason why not every body does.