Saturday, February 23, 2013

Creation A Miracle?

Is the concept of creation really a miracle?

A miracle is something that happens which is unexplainable by conventional knowledge.  It seems that the creation of the earth is no miracle at all because a being with limitless power created it.  If it is perfectly within his power to make an earth, then there is no miracle.  A god who heals the sick... that is no miracle if that god has the ability to heal the sick.  It's just another day in the life of god.

There is no god in existence who could perform a miracle, because his very ability to perform it disqualifies it as a miracle.  It can be explained.  Therefore, it is not a miracle.

Creationists mock the idea of the universe and life coming into existence by complete random chance.  Of course a god had to do it.  How else could it have possibly been done???  Science never has taught that the evolution of life was random, but let's just say, to make it simple, that it was completely random...

THAT MAKES IT ALL THE MORE MIRACULOUS!!!!!

I propose that the true miracle is the formation of the universe and the beginning of life, all without any diety orchestrating it's events whatsoever.  The very fact that biogenesis (the beginning of life) cannot be explained by conventional knowledge makes it a true miracle.

The idea that a single celled organism randomly gave rise to all the variety of life on Earth is truly miraculous.  It is awesome and mind-blowing!

This completely random world we live in is far more fascinating than anything any religion could ever drum up!

38 comments:

Brad said...

I like the way you think! Ever since I left the church my mind is continually growing and learning with all of the information that we are finding.

Mormon411 said...

I just love watching a good Nova program and marveling at the splendor of it all! And I love even more not having to perform mental gymnastics in order to make it all fit together.

Heather said...

Life is one big miracle right? The universe is truly awe inspiring!

weston krogstadt said...

You probably want and expect me to come in here and say something like "There is no way we came from fricking monkeys!"

I believe in evolution, one of the few Mormons who do. To me it's so obvious that a Supreme Being had a hand in it. Like a Human Being could come from a one-celled thing floating in the ocean without intelligent guidance. Come on, the chances would be one in a trillion. That is your problem, like most active Mormons you haven't really studied Mormonism or you would understand that Evolution and Mormonism go hand in hand.

Brad said...

Weston,

First you say that few Mormons believe in evolution and then you say that evolution and Mormons go hand in hand. So, if goes hand in hand, why do so few Mormons believe in it?

Why doesn't the prophet make an official statement about it? I think God would know this answer, right?

Oh, the prophet has spoken:

"As a watchman on the tower, I feel to warn you that one of the chief means of misleading our youth and destroying the family unit is our educational institutions. There is more than one reason why the Church is advising our youth to attend colleges close to their homes where institutes of religion are available. It gives the parents the opportunity to stay close to their children, and if they become alerted and informed, these parents can help expose some of the deceptions of men like ... Charles Darwin." Ezra Taft Benson 1988

So, you disagree with your prophet?

weston krogstadt said...

Brad, you're too big of a dicksucker to communicate with.

weston krogstadt said...

I learned a long time ago to ignore dicksucking cocksuckers like you.

weston krogstadt said...

Brad, you're too big of a dicksucker to communicate with.

Brad said...

Weston,

Aside from the way I phrased my questions, they are still valid. I was looking for clarification.

You said two opposing things in your message, which is it?

Obviously, the church, prophets and those who have lead your church, have voice differing opinions than your own. I wanted to understand how you justify those beliefs and your own.

“If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.” Elbert Hubbard

Heather said...

One of the main problems with Mormonism or ANY religion is that there are contrary teachings at every corner. I had seminary teachers say how stupid evolution was, but then had a bishop tell us (privately) how true evolution was. WTH? There is no possible way evolution happened if the BOM is true. The stories and the dates and the creation of the planet DO NOT match what science has discovered.

Mormon411 said...

Weston, Brad poses a valid question and calling him names will not do anything to earn respect from anybody.

Even if the chance is one in a trillion, that doesn't matter. The earth is 14 billion years old and that's a long, long time. Even if the chances are very slim, it only had to happen once.

If Mormonism and evolution go hand in hand, why has it always been denounced by the church?

Maybe someday with your valiant defense of the church, you will rise to apostlehood and you can reveal all the new great and marvelous things that current prophets are too dense to grasp.

And in the future, no more name calling or I will block you. Name calling and character assassination (i.e. referring to everyone as Mormon-Haters) are nothing but desperate defense tactics.

I stand by my claim that the one-in-a-trillion, impossible feat of life evolving without a designer is the true miracle.

Mormon411 said...

Thanks for sharing that, Heather. Yes, if religion was inspired, then you would get exactly the same message all the time from everyone. But a seminary teacher contradicting what a bishop says is a perfect example of what a scam it all is.

We're talking about the awesome creator of the universe here, and he can't even get it the same between two people. That is a laughable god and one who has none of my respect.

Revelation... (Insert mocking laugh!) Mankind is soooooo arrogant to think that they actually communicate personally with the great creator. (Insert another mocking laugh!)

They all receive revelation from this dude who never changes and yet their messages are always different. (M411 hangs his head in shame that he belongs to the species that generally buys into this nonsense of epic proportions)

What a sad thing that fantasy and myth is taught as literal truth and that so many people gobble it up without question...

Mormon411 said...

Weston, in Mormonism it is not your place to claim that you are more inspired than the prophets. That sort of thing is addressed in the BoM and is strongly looked down upon. I believe they refer to that as "being deceived by the devil."

It IS your place to simply bow your head and say, "yes".

And I feel that I should remind you that M411 is a fairly popular blog and every one of my visitors is able to see your comments and defense tactics. So you might want to clean it up because you are actually making the church look worse. You appear weak and desperate if you have to resort to name calling and other shady defense tactics.

weston krogstadt said...

I started to answer his question, spent about two minutes writing a comment when I said to myself, "Why am I wasting my time with this guy, this guy wouldn't believe in God even if Moroni came down from heaven into his room and interrupted one of his Man on Man rectum sessions." Plus it was a Smart-Ass remark. If you just want to throw Smart-Ass comments at each other, I've got a whole trunk full you dicksucking faggot.

weston krogstadt said...

Your comment was also full of smart-assedness Mormon411. My church and my beliefs are still special to me. If you just want to be a Smart-Ass, I'll call your mother and your kids all kinds of names. I do not cast my pearls before swine. Or in the case of Brian, I do not cast my pearls before Sodomites (even lower than pigs). In other words, neither of you have earned the right to throw out smart-ass questions to me. Now, if you want to treat me and my religion with a little respect, I will be happy to answer your questions.

Brad said...

RESPECT! You now want to talk about respect? After calling people vile names?

You come to a blog where people can freely talk about their frustration with Mormonism, and expect us to respect Mormonism?

I do respect your right to believe whatever you want and to express them. But, I have no respect for Mormonism (and many other religions, for that matter). The damage I have done to my family and others, it doesn't deserve respect! I do not respect sexism, bigotry, ignorance, and tyranny all of which Mormonism personifies.

If want to come to this site and defend your beliefs, please do so. Mormon411 allows everyone to put in their peace. But, if can't man up and answer questions without resorting to name-calling, than, I would ask that you go back to your "blog" where no one is allowed to question.

Peace!

Exhalted Outcast said...

@ Weston; why are you so focused on homosexuality? It seems to me that the person doing the most protesting about a specific subject is generally feeling guilt about their own personal issues. Have you addressed your own latent homosexual tendencies?

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue whatsoever with someone being LGBT or whatever, it's something that each person is and lives with. Straight or not, it's all the same. I'm just amused that you spend so much time on that subject when it's obvious to me from your writing that you are obviously struggling with your own sexual identity.

It's ok. Be gay everyone deserves to be happy. I know it doesn't jive with your religious beliefs, that's something you will have to work out on your own.

As far as to OP goes, I am not sure that you have even put out any kind of point or valid discussion piece so Weston if you have something please share it, I would love to see your proof or evidence. Say something that PROVES the BOM is legitimate and that it is historically relevant?

weston krogstadt said...

Yes Brad, I called you a cocksucker and a dicksucker after you made fun of my religion. Now, if you want to have a logical and reasonable discussion about Mormonism and Evolution without the sarcasm and smartassedness then I'm game. If you want to just hurl insults at each other, I'm game for that too.

weston krogstadt said...

Outcast, using that same argument means everyone who is disgusted by and protesting against pedophilia is secretly hiding a desire to harm children.

Mormon411 said...

Asking a good question, which is what Brad did, is not being a smart ass. And again, for being a church defender, you are not being Christ-like at all. If you feel that all this discussion is just personal attacks at you, then take the high road and just leave.

Now, I want you to know that I respect the fact that you're defending your faith. I just don't respect the way you do it. As a man of faith, especially Mormon, I would never expect you to say "dicksuker" and "faggot". If you saw a Jew defending their faith the way you defend yours, would you think to yourself, "That guy has a good point."? Maybe you would, but no one else does.

I echo what Brad said. We do not respect Mormonism and this is OUR PLACE to talk about it. We respect your right to believe and defend. But don't come in here with your holier-than-thou guns blazing and expect us to say nothing in response.

Unfortunately, it appears that you can't even tell the difference between making fun of your religion and a good discussion about it. Yes, sometimes I can be a smartass, but it's usually in response to those who come in here and engage me first. Your comments are always full of overwhelming condescending, and I don't know why you are offended when we call you out on it.

This is not name calling, but you are a bigot. You have this idea that you are 100% right and everyone else is wicked, murdering, baby-eating, raping, back-stabbing, sex-having, hell-bound heathens. This is the view that Mormonism and religion gives to it's members about the outside world.

Thus far I have not deleted your comments because they actually work to further the purpose of my blog. So I'm going to let you keep on making a fool of yourself. Call names and fling insults. It will not earn you a flicker of respect from any of us.

weston krogstadt said...

Perhaps the dicksucker/cocksucker remarks were a bit over the top, but the tone of his comment was, and always is, clearly in the smart-ass category. I will refrain from using those titles, and remember, if you want me to stop "making a fool of myself" just ask, and I will leave, you don't have to block me. I wouldn't want to look dumb in front of all 13 Mormon-Haters who read your blog.

As far as the evolution is concerened, you two are still thinking in the 19th century while using that term, just like Benson was. In the 19th century there was a clear distinction between creationists and evolutionists. It was either Adam and Eve or Darwin, period, end of story. This is the way you two are still thinking. Let me give you an example of how that has changed in the past 100 years. I believe in Adam and Eve, I also belive that dogs evolved from wolves. Do I not believe in evolution? Does this belief that dogs came from wolves discredit my membership in the LDS church?

weston krogstadt said...

I answered your lame disrespectful and shallow question. Now, why don't you tell me how Piltdown Man has proven God does not exist?

weston krogstadt said...

Yes I know Benson was Prophet in the 20th century but he was using the 19th century definition of Evolution: "There is no God we came from mud."

weston krogstadt said...

No opinion on Piltdown Man? I thought Piltdown Man was the poster child for the atheist movement.

Brad said...

Weston,

Your comment doesn't make any sense to me.

An Atheist is a person who doesn't believe in any deities. There isn't usually any philosophical attachments to being an atheist. As an atheist, we are free to search our own path and work on those things that is important to us.

I've never hard of the Piltdown Man until you mentioned it. A brief search on google reveals that it was a hoax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/science-of-natural-history/the-scientific-process/piltdown-man-hoax/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20729785

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/do53pi.html

I fail to see the connection between the two.

Mormon411 said...

I too have never heard of the Piltdown Man.

weston krogstadt said...

The Piltdown Man rules, don't ever say anything bad about the Piltdown man, he proves we came from monkeys.

weston krogstadt said...

I can't believe you guys have never heard of Piltdown man. I took an anthropology class and we spent two days talking about Piltdown Man. Have you ever heard of Neanderthal? How about Charles Darwin, does that name ring a bell?

Brad said...

I think you should ask for you money back, since Piltdown Man has been proven to be a fraud as I indicated in my previous post.

weston krogstadt said...

Brad, I brought the subject up to be humorous, but Piltodwn Man played a huge role in the history of Anthropology. Anthropologists thought he was real for 30 years. Every person with a BA/BS in Anthropology has studied him and he is in most books on human evolution (there was a whole chapter on him in the text book). The fact that you haven't heard of him tells me how uneducated you are on the subject of Human Evolution and Anthropology.

weston krogstadt said...

I thought atheism has set you free and you now run through the fields singing that "Born Free" song from the 60s, you guys are about as much fun as a tax audit. What do you do for fun Brad, go out on the streets and kick immigrants?

Hakam Adam said...

"The idea that a single celled organism randomly gave rise to all the variety of life on Earth is truly miraculous. It is awesome and mind-blowing!"

But there's a difference between highly improbable and utterly impossible. For it to be a miracle it needs to be able to happen.

Consider that the typical atom interacts with other atoms at a maximum of 1 quadrillion (10^15) times every second. Then count up the number of seconds in 20 billion years (round up to be generous), and multiply those two values with the estimated amount of atoms in the universe.

That will give you the total number of atomic interactions in the whole universe since the beginning.

It gives you the upper boundary for what a probability needs to be, in order to happen. Basically if something has a 1 in 1 million chance of happening, then given just one trial, it won't happen. You'd have to have at least a million trials, statistically, for the probability of it happening at least once to rise to 1:1. Same concept here.

The abovementioned number of interactions is about 10^140. But the probability of a single protein coming together is the number of amino acid types raised to the power of the number of acids in the peptide chain. 20^200 for example. The shortest protein known to man is longer than 200 amino acids.

The chance of a single protein coming into existence at any point in time in the whole universe, then, is less than 1:10^100, bearing in mind that this is one million times as improbable as a 1:10^94 chance.

In other words, it can't happen. It's mathematically impossible. It's not a miracle, because it can't have happened. This isn't about questionable scientific or historical interpretations. This is solid mathematics. You ignore this at your peril.

I hope you'll consider this reasonably, without letting emotions hinder you from accepting it.

Sierra 117 said...

Would a faith be called a faith if it didn't require you to have FAITH?

Christian said...

Interesting idea you bring up here. I like it yet still prefer staying away from the word miracle, as I am sure some religious person will link to it and say "Atheist believes in miracles." :)

Susan said...

I'm glad you were able to see that Mormonism is a lie, Mormon411, but sad that it caused you to become an atheist. I was brought up Seventh day Adventist, married and divorced a Mormon, then dabbled in the occult/new age movement, and God by His mercy saved me.

At one time when I read the Bible it was all dry words on a dry page. After being saved, His book came alive to my understanding. Every time I read it I understand the miraculousness of my existence and the power of God's saving love. I hope you will one day come out of your darkness and into the true light that brings true immortal life to all who receive Him.

lovemaltipoo said...

Where have you been mormon411??

Mormon411 said...

Honestly, I've lost all desire to blog at the moment. I feel, at least for now, that I've had my say. I might be back. If not, I'll put up a farewell post.

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