Wednesday, April 13, 2011

There Is Tons of Proof For Religion! All You Have to do Is Stop Thinking and You Will See it Too!

I have recently engaged in a discussion with Child of God on her blog. There is a link to it on my side bar. Her blog is "Jesus this" and "Jesus that" and "I can't move or breathe without Jesus" and it is dedicated to praying for different people (upon their request). I just had to write her. The following is what was said (my thoughts are in italics). I have not included the entire text of the dialog; irrevalent and unrelated material is not necessary here.

Mormon411:

"I was reading through your prayer list. What will this do exactly?

"You see, some of the people will recover and some won't. So how exactly, did your prayer make a difference? I thought god's will is eternal and unchanging. So how do you expect to change his mind, even if lots of people pray for it?

"If it is gods will, then it is going to happen, no matter what. So why pray? It does nothing. If someone was going to die, then they die and all the prayers in the world did not save them.

"While it appears like a noble cause at first glance, it is actually quite ridiculous that you actually think you can influence god to do YOUR will."

Child of God:

"Why do you try to put God in a box? He is the Creator of all. How can you, who don’t know God, claim to know His ways? How can you understand prayer when you do not know the Creator of prayer? This is like a 5 year old questioning the judgment of their parent, impossible. Have you ever seen an answer to prayer? Have you even had the courage to step out in faith? Why do you judge something you have no clue about? I have seen the power of prayer in action working in accordance with God’s will not mine. No one can make God do what they want you align yourself up with the will of God and pray according to His good and perfect will.

"The bloody feet of Jesus is the truth of our faith and why should the truth of what Jesus did for you and for me be covered up or lessened? It is wise to open our eyes and look on exactly what God did for us. There is only one way for sins to be forgiven and that is through the blood sacrifice of a sinless person and that person can only be God in the flesh, for only He can be sinless. There are no more sacrifices, Jesus made it complete and His gift to us is big and should be honoured as such, not minimized because of blood.

"I pray you will meet my God and see just how much He loves you. He spilled His precious blood and endured ridicule for you so you can have freedom and eternal life with the Father of all."

So you're supposed to align your will with gods will? That seems a little redundant. Why pray for what is going to happen anyway? What if it is gods will that little Lucy dies? Should I then pray to god for her slow miserable death? What if you get raped tomorrow? Was that gods will? If so, you should have wanted it. But then it wouldn't be rape so...

I never claimed to know gods ways. You're the one who believes that his will is complete and unchanging. Then you turn around and try to change it by praying. I'm simply calling you out on an obvious problem.

I could start a religion where our idol saved us by being gutted alive. How about if I display a statue with its entrails hanging out? Would you be okay with that? When people tell me I'm sick and twisted I'll just reply that his blood and guts were spilled for me and you can just "laugh all you want". I will then accuse you of being an idiot for not believing it as blindly as I do and state that the mere 'fact' you are 'persecuting' me is proof that it's all true!


On a different post...

Mormon411 (In response to her ramblings about how Jesus is soooooo true):

"Truth is: there is no god. We live in the 21st century. We haven't made the progress we have by relying on a 2000 year old myth to solve all our problems for us. It's time for all people to embrace truth, not fairytales and stories."

Child of God:

"I am sorry you feel this way but the Truth IS Jesus Christ, born, death on the cross and raised from the dead, living and seated and the right hand of the Father conquering evil once and for all, there is no other truth but His. It is a good idea to embrace this idea now before He returns again, for all creation will bow their knee to God... I have no problem defending my faith because it is founded in truth not myth."

Watch this. I am going to ask her to back up these bold claims.

Mormon411:

"You're obviously convinced of your beliefs. I don't know what, if any, research you have done into myths, but if you do, you will find that Jesus is just another one. There are much older stories of virgins having babies and heros with a human parent and a godly parent. Jesus is the same story retold and given a different name.

"Now, you boldly claim that your belief is THE truth. Can you back that up with something other than ancient books and good feelings? If so, please do share."

She is going to try to tell me that proof is everywhere and I am just too subborn to see it or acknowledge it.

Child of God:

"The Bible is a history book and proven to be correct. Prophesies recorded there have come true and are coming true today. Jesus rising from the dead did happen and He has given His Spirit to dwell within and this is a matter of believing by faith, a moving of the Holy Spirit.

"A while ago I had a discussion with an atheist and I found that if a person chooses to close their mind there is nothing I can say to change it. It is a matter of the Spirit coming in and convincing you otherwise. I have seen deaf people hear, legs grow out to become even, a drowned baby come back to life, a drowned grown man with 0 chance of survival alive and well and finishing off his university courses. I myself have been healed from Rheumatoid Arthritis. There is proof if you seek it. But if your mind is closed then you will never believe. Here is a link to a Muslim turned Christian where Jesus manifested Himself right in front of him. It is a bit long but you asked for proof, so here is some proof for you. Think on this a bit, if Jesus was not true then why would the 12 disciples and more be willing to die horrible terrible deaths for Jesus. If this was just a myth why would Peter be willing to risk being hung upside down on the cross and why would Stephen still preach the Word of Jesus while being stoned to death? These are true facts that are recorded elsewhere in history. Nero was a wicked cruel leader who would rip Christians in two, why didn’t these people deny their faith? If it was a story then why would they watch their family members being tortured to death? Why are people today willing to die for their faith? Because the Holy Spirit comes in and makes Himself real to you, you feel Him and He guides you.

"One more piece of truth for you. My husband is a physician who works in emergency and critical care and he has been eye witness to dead people rising to life again because he has prayed. Code called off all the medical team stopping their work, only for him to be pressed by the Holy Spirit to pray so out of obedience he prayed and heart started beating and the man breathing. No lie this happened twice. Then there is the drowned baby and the drowned man both surviving and 100% normal.

"There is more proof out there if you are willing to seek it. In all honesty drop the skepticism and seek the truth I guarantee He will meet you and prove Himself to you, but you have to be willing to seek and research and when you see don't pass it off as coincidence."

That's a mouthful. Prophesies in the Bible are coming true today? You mean like natural disasters, war, and pestilence? Those things have ALWAYS been around. To prophesy that they will happen in the future is really not that hard to do.

Her next bit of "proof" is that she has seen healings. I don't doubt that she has, BUT does it only happen to believers? I could just as easily claim that my entrailed statue did all those healings. So someone was healed. The only thing that proves was that someone was healed. How do you know Satan didn't do it?

Her next bit of "proof" is even more pathetic: the fictional 12 disciples suffered and died for the fictional Jesus. Why would they have done that unless it was really true? What? Seriously? So if we follow that logic, Hitler must have been a true dictator because all of those German soldiers were willing to die for him. Next!

My husband is a doctor and has experienced some unexplained medical mysteries; i.e. god bringing dead people back to life "because he prayed". How do you know it was because he prayed? You don't. Let me remind you, your husband is a doctor. It is his JOB to keep people alive and to try and prevent their deaths. It happens. People who have been declared dead do come back sometimes, but only within a few minutes of their death. It is not like they have been dead for a day or two and then come back. Plus, again, does this only happen to believers? No. It happens to people everywhere of every faith.

There is more proof and if you stop "thinking" you will be able to see it.


Mormon411:

"The Bible has been proven? Really? There is no scientific evidence that there was ever a global flood. If there ever was such a flood, evidence of it would have been left behind. If the Bible is true, then snakes and donkeys can talk.

"I have always said that if god created the world, then a study of that world should only further reveal the nature of god. Science, which is a study of the world, has disproved Biblical claims again and again. The earth is much older than 6000 years. It is 4.5 billion years old. Humans have been on the earth for at least 200,000 years. DNA evidence has proved this.

"Which Biblical prophesies, exactly, are coming true today? That there will be wars and rumors of wars? Can you name a time in recorded history when there has not been war? A self-fulfiling prophesy does not impress me. I can't see the future, but I am pretty sure that the sun will rise tomorrow. Does that make me a true prophet if it actually happens? Or how about if I prophesy that someday the United States of America will cease to exist? Eventually it will happen, but it's not because I prophesied it, but because sooner or later, all things fall.

"It's funny. I've had similar discussions with believers and I've found that they are just as close minded and set in their beliefs as anyone else. Please keep in mind that I used to be a believer. When I finally got rid of the wishful thinking and started taking a look at the real evidence, god dissolved. I have been on both sides and I am much happier here, knowing that there is no angry, jealous, vengeful sky daddy. The way we are different is that I look at the evidence and come to a conclusion. You come to a conclusion and then cherry pick to find evidence supporting your claim. Truth is not found in that way.

"The 12 disciples died horrible deaths for Jesus because, like Jesus, they are made up. And even if they were real people, the story was imbellished by Constantine at the Nicene Council. In fact, if Jesus was from the Far East area of the world, wouldn't he be dark skinned? Why is Jesus white? Because the image of Jesus that everyone puts on their walls is actually a portrait of Constantine himself. Those with the power, make history and Constantine had the power. Jesus was whatever Constantine said he was.

"I have no doubt that medical "miralces" occur on occassions. I have worked in the health industry myself. However, do these unexplained occurances only happen to Christians? No they don't. They happen to atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, and every other group of people. So just because it happened to someone who is Christian, is no proof at all that Jesus did it. So I still feel that you have not provided me with adequate proof to change my mind. You have only provided me with wishful thinking.

"I am a firm believer in seeking truth. That means being open to being proven wrong. If you are truly searching for the truth, then you must be prepared to admit that you don't already have it. That is why I stopped being a believer. Because the only "evidence" is wishful thinking and corrupt or misinformed preachers who tell their audience that "evolution has been disproved."

"Sorry, but evolution is a scientific fact and anyone who says otherwise is either lying or seriously misinformed."

Notice how, again, she fails to address any of the issues I brought up: no evidence for a global flood, why Biblical prophesies don't impress me, the age of the earth, evolution, etc.

Child of God:

"There is tons of proof it is just that you shake it off as false.

"My husband is a physician, and scientist. He use to believe like you until he started searching and seeing how false and phony science can be. Science is based on theory not fact and is so faulty because it is of man and man lies, cheats and steals to make his point right.

"My husband walked out of the scientific field because of all the lies going around. Lies to make their scientific theories true. Now this is up there in the top of the field, you know leading medicine and stuff. Not good. He bailed out before he got mixed up in the lies of it all.

"The truth is, science was built on God. All the old scientist of the past were Christians proving God. God created science and told us to seek the truth, but when man cannot explain something they lie so they do not lose face. Pride is the downfall of Satan and it is the downfall of man.

"If the Jesus is made up then why do people still suffer for Him today? Why would I allow you here to ridicule my faith? Because Jesus is real. His love flows through me to you. Laugh at me that is fine I only hope and pray that you will meet Him. The truth.

"I pray He makes Himself real to you and you can find the peace and hope that He and only He can offer.

"Jesus is coming back soon I hope you meet Him before the tribulation comes."

Notice how, in her reply, she doens't even try to refute anything I said.

There is tons of proof. If you stop being critical (thinking) then you will see it too. Yes, I shake it off as false because it is false.

Now science is false and phony? So are you telling me that our modern technology is all a scam? When you fly on an airplane, those lying scientists have just made it look like you're miles above the ground traveling at 300 MPH? When you talk on the phone, those lying scientists have just made it sound like your party is talking to you from across the country?

I don't doubt that in any organization there are those who lie and are dishonest. I am sure that some scientists lie for their own personal gain. So if that is the case, then religion is false and phony too because there are priests who like to molest little boys. Many religious leaders have been caught with prostitutes. If you are going to try to use a specific argument against science, make sure that it can't be turned around and pointed right back at you.

She then tries to bring up the "proof" that it's all true because 'you're here on my blog persecuting my beliefs.'


Mormon411:

"Your view on science is typical of a believer. It's all just a bunch of lies to discredit god. And I don't doubt that you're right in the sense that people are people and too often are selfish and dishonest. Its sad but true. However, if you have ever enjoyed flying in an airplane, talking on the phone, using a computer, etc., then you have science to thank for that.

"Christians "suffer" for Jesus because they believe. Muslims fly airplanes into buildings because they believe. A Muslim could easily argue that Islam is the true religion because people are willing to suffer for it. Sorry, but that's not proof that your god exists. It just isn't. It's wishful thinking."

Notice how she still doesn't try to refute anything I've said. She just keeps on with the Jesus ramblings. When I point out that she uses this "phony science" everyday, she has no refute.

Child of God:

"Jesus is coming I hope you make the decision to follow Him before the tribulation sets in because when that happens there will be turmoil like never before."

So are you saying that when Jesus gets here, all shit will hit the fan? That's not something I would be bragging about. Interesting how she actually believes that the earth is an okay place to be UNTIL Jesus gets here. I just find it ironic.

Child of God boldly claims that Jesus IS truth. When I ask for proof, she provides me with a bunch of crap. When I call her out on that crap, she accuses me of being close-minded and stubborn.

In another tread, she tried to convince me of its truth by relaying two more faith-promoting stories. In the first story, her pastors cell phone was dead. He prayed and it suddenly worked!

If that actually did happen, it was your pastor decieving you. A dead battery is a dead battery and all the faith in the world won't charge it. The man is lying to you. He just turned off his phone, prayed, and then turned it back on. How about you start seeing things for what they are and not what you want them to be?

In the second story, she HEARD of a couple who's car wouldn't start. They prayed and whatever problem was wrong was instantly fixed and the car has run perfectly ever since. That happened to me once. I'm no mechanic. I don't know how they work under the hood. But I do know that if the car won't start now, sometimes it will later.

Believers see everything that happens as proof of Jesus. I can't even put into words how stupid this is. All I can do is compare it to other faiths. Muslims see everything that happens as proof of Allah; how come you can't see it? The proof is right there; just stop being stubborn. I could sarcastically state that I know it was the work of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Who are you to question my delicious, noodly imaginary friend who was consumed for me? Stop being stubborn and you will see it!

Jesus fucking Christ, lady! She should get one of these! The last one is my favorite!

4 comments:

Heather B said...

That is beyond anything rational.

My husband just had one of these "discussions" via FB (gotta love FB!) and in that discussion the "friend" asked husband if God himself came to visit him, wouldn't he be obligated to preach and proclaim what was said?

To which Hubby said...If God came to him, he would have himself committed.

Friend...took offense. Then went off on how God came to JS and JS needed to proclaim what was taught, as well as all of the prophets of the bible had also had visitations.

Hubby...If god came to him and asked him to kill his first born, then he went out to preach what was said, would this friend believe him?

Friend..he would have to pray about it.




Stop thinking and you can see how religion is great, I guess....

I for one would rather think.

Cath.. said...

this is kind of off subject, but i wanted to see what you think about this:

every time i look at FB (mind you, im 2000 miles away from my family and friends and this is how we communicate and yes, its pathetic) i see someone saying something like "i really want to buy a new car but i need a cosigner for this loan or it wont happen." here comes sally bible-thumper to comment "just pray and god will make it happen."

REALLY? WELL WHY DIDNT I PRAY SOONER! I NEED A BETTER CREDIT SCORE, TOO!

WTF. in my opinion, god is for people who have no common sense and cant think for themselves. its like well, if i do what this book tells me then ill be okay.. but then real life happens and they just want to throw god out there any time a problem arises like somehow this clears everything up.

addicts love god. apparently their family and friends werent telling them that drugs were bad and that maybe it would be in their best interest if they stop.. but here comes god and all of a sudden POOF im not on drugs anymore but im better than you because i go to church every sunday.. forget the fact that i neglected my children and cooked meth in the same house as them. come on now.

im sorry that i rambled. im just sick of how god gets brought into how someone had to poop today and other retarded stuff.

Mormon411 said...

LOL, both of you have commented about dealing with religion on FB.

Cath, if you are guilty of rambling, then I am way guilty of it! Your comment makes perfect sense and is exactly what I have been trying to say. Pray for a car. Then when you go out and work and buy a car, you put in all the effort and god gets the credit. God did nothing and is yet so wonderful and this is proof that he answers prayers.

Yea, it bothers me too.

Cath.. said...

i have a cousin who is a preacher and he actually runs his own church back in my home town. my dad quit doing drugs so he needed something else to be addicted to.. so he started going to church every day the doors were open. it wasnt enough asking my father when i was a child to quit doing drugs because i was tired of him going to prison. my family and i went home for vacation last month and stayed with my dad instead of renting a hotel room in town. it saved us a ton of money, but it ended up costing me a sunday i will never get back.

about a week before our trip, i got an email from my preacher cousin and he wanted to ask me how i felt about god. believe me when i say i gave him what he asked for. i told him there was no sense in going to church. "i know killing is bad. i know greed is disgusting. i know cheating on your spouse is a horrible thing and i know the difference between fact and fiction. people choose religion because they need a standard to live their life by instead of carrying the overwhelming burden of having to think for themselves. if you think im going to hell for the way i think ive got a surprise for you- when you die NOTHING HAPPENS! you are either buried to become worm food or you're burned to ashes. prayer does nothing so dont waste your breath on me. see you next sunday."

i think i hurt his feelings. that following sunday morning he hugged me and said, "i prayed for you anyway." yay for words!