Tuesday, May 17, 2011


I was in the home of a TBM the other day and I noticed a tile near their front door with the following saying on it:

"Faith is not believing that God can; it is knowing that He will."

In Mormonism, simply believing is not enough. You don't get up and bare your testimony saying, "I believe it's true." No way! That will get you laughed out the front door!

You must know! With every 'fiber of your being' (a phrase Mormons love to say) you must know it's true.

There is no such thing as belief in Mormonism. In most Christian denominations, you must simply believe in order to be saved. In Mormonism, belief will get you nowhere. If you want to be saved, you must know!

But knowing has its consequences. By having a sure knowledge of the truthfulness of the church, walking away has serious implications. By once having had a testimony and then walking away, one is committing the unforgivable sin: denying the holy spirit.

This is the sin of denying Christ in spite of the fact that you have a sure knowledge of his existance. All Mormons who know it's true are bound to stay in the church if they don't want their souls to end up in outer darkness forever with Satan.

It seems strange to me that a murderer will get off easier in the next life than someone who simply quits going to church. But this is Mormonism. It would better for me to go out and rape all the girls I want and still be a TBM than to leave the church and not rape anyone.

Murderers and rapists go to the lowest degree of glory (the Telestial Kingdom), which is (according to Joseph Smith) so beautiful that if we saw it, we would kill ourselves to go there.

People who simply walk away from the church get to spend an eternity with Satan in outer darkness, where there is no glory at all.

This is what "knowing" will cost you.


Ain't No Mo No Mo said...

I hate those sayings--Knowing that God will; If you have enough faith, you can move mountains; I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it (hello, my yoke is easy and my burden is light, anyone?). The fact is, sometimes things just happen.

When I went through the in vitro process some years back, I had perfect faith. I KNEW it was going to work. No doubt in my mind. I had priesthood blessings to that effect. So when it failed, I was utterly devastated. What was the use of knowing?

Mormon411 said...

Exactly! When I was about 13 I was having trouble with school because I couldn't see. Naturally, I tried the priesthood first and after that didn't work, the eye doctor made it all better. I had no doubt that the blessing would work, but it didn't.

Another thing I've always wondered... if Mormons are supposed to know with such perfect surety, then what is the use of having a prophet for a special witness?

Exhalted Outcast said...

Since I "KNOW" that the sun will rise, I don't need faith.

Since I "KNOW" that oxygen is a good thing, I don't need faith that breathing will keep me alive.

I don't "KNOW" about god doing or will do. I don't have "faith" that god will or won't do.

I am not sure what the benefit of "KNOWING" that god will do something when empirically it has been proven that god "WON'T" do anything!

It seems a wasted exercise to "KNOW" since what they "KNOW" never seems to happen anyway....

Just my two cents...

Heather B said...

One of the hardest things I had to do was admit that I was wrong in "knowing" it was all true. I really thought I knew it was true, I had strong feelings for the "knowing" but feelings are not truth.

I remember before I met my husband I was dating a guy who was going to BYU. I was totally head over heals for him and I "knew" he was the one for me, my feelings told me so. I prayed sooooooo hard for him to feel the same, but he never did. So much for having faith in knowing. I think I ended up better off anyway...

There are all sorts of things that I know, much like Exhalted Outcast, I don't need faith in those things.

XOXO Dr. Kay Elizabeth said...

I have to say this. I think forgiveness is what makes it possible for an EX-murderer to be able to go to heaven as oppose to someone who walks out of church and out on God. Honestly do you think someone will come into your house if they don't even believe you exist? Or make the choice not to be with you anymore? I don't think anyone who is a murderer will be in heaven UNLESS they're sins have been forgiven, they have repented, received the precious gift of the Holy Ghost and have followed and obeyed God. I d pray that you heal from your hurt. I understand, I was hurt in church as well, but I beg of you not to hold that hurt against God. I once was like that as well. Yes we are God's people, but we are not God and sometimes people give others the wrong impression of God but don't hold that against Him. He didn't do it, others did. The devil can use a saint just like he can use someone who has never come into the truth and repented, otherwise known as a sinner. I am not here to try and bash your thoughts, but I do think you need healing from the pain and to forgive these people and not let them run your life when they are no longer in your life. I also pray that God doesn't let your heart be heartened with hurt, pain, bitterness, or unforgiveness. You'll feel so much free when you no longer have these things in your life or in your heart. I will pray for you and that you come into the truth of God. Don't let some people's bad representation of God send you out on God, He didn't do anything to you, they did and they will be held accountable for any wrong doing they have done to you. I will be praying for you, and there is no need to bash me or send me hate mail, I'm not that kind of person, just thought I could help someone who is going through church hurt just like we all have at some point. Don't give up on God because of other people's ignorance!

XOXO Dr. Kay Elizabeth said...

Also try another church, there isn't only one church in the world. Ask God for wisdom and knowledge so that you may receive the precious gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues so that you can be guided and directed by the truth and not false doctrine or hurtful people. :)

XOXO Dr. Kay Elizabeth said...

Also we need faith in order to be a child of God. We are children of faith, without faith it is impossible to please Him Hebrews 11:6. If you KNEW everything then there would be no use for faith. That is why you have to know the Word for yourself and ask God for guidance and understanding for everything else that you may not know. We ALL have a direct contact with God that we don't need someone to go to Him on our behalf. Thank God for the veil being broken when Jesus died on the cross for us. We can have direct access to God and He can give us wisdom, knowledge and understanding if we ASK Him. I do pray and hope that everyone of you heal from your hurt, even myself. God bless you all. :)

XOXO Dr. Kay Elizabeth said...

Also we need faith in order to be a child of God. We are children of faith, without faith it is impossible to please Him Hebrews 11:6. If you KNEW everything then there would be no use for faith. That is why you have to know the Word for yourself and ask God for guidance and understanding for everything else that you may not know. We ALL have a direct contact with God that we don't need someone to go to Him on our behalf. Thank God for the veil being broken when Jesus died on the cross for us. We can have direct access to God and He can give us wisdom, knowledge and understanding if we ASK Him. I do pray and hope that everyone of you heal from your hurt, even myself. God bless you all. :)

Tyson Devereux said...

"And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true"
- Alma 32:21 (Book of Mormon)

We don't believe that faith is a perfect knowledge - or there is no point in faith. However, we tend to separate wishy washy "I believe when its convenient" from true conversion and conviction - and this is where you get the words, "I know" It is not a perfect knowledge. I have not seen God nor have first hand experience of the Bible or Book of Mormon, but I have experienced enough to have a true conviction. "To Believe" is when it sounds good. "To know" is faith and total trust in the Lord.

I'm sorry, but all the examples I've read, I read only one thing- "I didn't get what I wanted" People wrote that they "Knew" that something was going to happen, but they don't realize it was something that you or other people wanted, and didn't understand the Lord's plan. I've experience some hard failures, but after time and with faith I have realized that the Lord knew better. Don't give up in Faith so easily (or is that even faith at all)

Mormon411 said...

Tyson, when you pray to god, do you ever pray for things you don't want?

"Dear god, please bless this car that it will break down exactly half way to our destination."

"Dear god, please bless this food that it will give food poisoning to everyone who partakes."

"Dear god, please bless grandma in the hosptial that she will be in lots of pain and take a long time to recover."

You pray for things you want; you admitted it yourself. So I don't really see the validity of your argument. Some prayers "get answered". Others don't. What you call and answered or unanswered prayer is simply the outcome of life:

You want something. You pray for it. You work for it. You get it.

You want something. You pray for it. You don't work for it. You don't get it.

The scriptures say that all you need is the faith of a mustard seed and god will give you anything you ask for. I asked for better eyes and didn't get it. Therefore the scriptures are not true.

Mormon411 said...

"Dr" Elizabeth said:

"Honestly do you think someone will come into your house if they don't even believe you exist?"

That is the stupidest question that anyone has ever asked me.

I know that you're desperate to be right and so you'll say anything.

Yea, someone probably would come into my house if they believed I wasn't there. They might be looking to buy. They might be trying to rob me. Yes, people would still enter my house if they didn't think I existed.

Now secondly, that just makes the character of god look even lower. Anyone who doesn't want to be gods friend goes to hell forever? What a fucking asshole. That dude has a serious self-esteem problem.

So you really do think that murderers deserve heaven and people who simply don't believe in god deserve hell?

Wow! All I can say is "wow"! Which would you rather have in YOUR house? A murderer who is "sorry" or an unbeliever who isn't?

Tyson Devereux said...


You ask a question, and then turn around and answer it for me to make your point. To be honest, I have prayed for things that weren't what I wanted. Not in your cynical way, but yes, I clearly remember giving someone a blessing and wanting to tell them they would be healed. I wanted to have that miracle moment, but mostly, I wanted that person to no longer have any suffering. Guess what? My blessing had no miraculous words of, "You will be healed." It's not what I was guided to say.

That's just one of many moments. I have several moments where the answer was "No" and it was hard to accept. We always want it to be, "Yes" and if we don't get that answer, then we claim that God doesn't answer us. We feel God should be in line with us, putting our needs and wants in front of God's understanding.

And you through out that mustard seed scripture without any understanding of it. The scriptures also say, "Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' will be saved" First, your idea of Faith is mis defined. Second, Faith is not easy and the scripture really points out that not just any believer can be saved, because obviously there's millions who "believe" and I don't see any mountains moved.

And your example proves my point. You said you had faith and once something didn't turn out the way you wanted, you abandon God - Just shows you never had faith at all. Faith is a full trust in the Lord. Your "Belief" was conditional. They are not the same. Sorry for the outcome, but your putting the blame in the wrong place. Blame yourself - Not God.

Mormon411 said...

All my life I was taught and brainwashed that I had the amazing power of god. I was taught that the priesthood can perform miracles. I was taught that god is a god of miracles. So why are you here criticizing me for actually expecting a miracle?

If I made it sound like I abandoned god shortly after he refused to heal my eyes, no. I was a blind (no pun intended)follower for many years. (No, I'm not blind, just need corrective eye-wear).

It is now, in hindsight, that I can see the amazing absence of god. He was never there.

The problem with people like you is that you believe so strongly in Mormonism and yet when it fails to deliver what it promises, you justify and justify. I got tired of making excuses for god and began to see things the way they really are.

So, you have no right to come in here and judge me. I was always taught that miracles happen in Mormonism. Since I have never seen any, I can only conclude that it's all a lie. You can justify all day. Makes no difference to me.

So excuse me for actually believing what I was taught and expecting gods help. If you had known me, you would never guess, in a million years, that I would leave the church. I knew the scriptures inside out and backwards. I served a mission in spite of the fact that my apostate father was strongly opposed to me going. So don't sit there and think that you know all about me. You think that I just got disillusioned once and walked away. No, I gave god years and years of loyal obedience and he never once returned any of the favors. Not once. Then, after I got sick and tired of making excuses for god, I finally realized that he simply isn't there.

I have never found such peace of mind than I did on the day that I discovered there is no god. It was like an overwhelming sense of relief.

Mormonism claims to give you freedom but it is actually a prison for your mind.

Tyson Devereux said...

"And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith" - Ether 12:18

It's really hard to believe you were a mormon when you completely forget even the most simple scriptures. Faith comes before miracles. You lacked "faith", so therefore you failed to witness any miracle. You don't want a miracle, you want proof. And you think proof leads to faith, and that's why you'll be waiting a long time for your proof. (but honestly- even if God himself appeared to you, you would still question His "existence")

And I truly don't care about who you are and what happened in your life. Oh boo hoo, your parents didn't love you. Get over it. Seriously, the "You don't know me," argument is pretty sad. Funny thing is, you don't know me, and yet every post you include all mormons as sad, unhappy people living a lie. You have no clue what I had to endure and what I have experienced, and yet you have the insight to include me into your little lies. Really. If anyone reading has a brain, they will realize that your weak inductive argument is pathetic --> I was unhappy so therefore, everyone must be unhappy. I didn't see a miracle, so therefore there must be no miracles. I was living a lie, so therefore everyone is living a lie.

"God didn't answer my prayers" - man, you sound like a pouty kid. You don't know me

Mormon411 said...

Yes I do believe all Mormons are living a lie but I have stated many times (and I'll forgive you since you're new and probably haven't read it) that some people need Mormonism and are truly happy with it. For them, I am happy. I am not saying that all Mormons are unhappy. But I am saying that I belive that many of them are unhappy but continue the charade of "Must be happy because I'm Mormon."

Anyway, I am in a church that preaches miracles and, once again, when I blog about actually expecting a miracle, I get scoffed at by Mormons.

What if I had said that I got a blessing for better eyes and it happened? You wouldn't doubt at all that it was true. You wouldn't question my character. That is because, in Mormonism, if it doesn't work for you, then it is your fault, not the churches. If you never see a miracle it is because YOU are the problem.

Tyson Devereux said...

I never doubted the priesthood blessing. The outcome, whether you were healed or not, has no relevance.

What I question is your reasoning. I never seen China, so therefore it must be a lie. I've heard about it, but I never seen it, so they all must be lying. My teachers brainwashed me and I spent years blinded by all their lies. Thanks so much for enlightening me - I would have never seen the "truth"

(yeah, your blogs sound that childish)

Mormon411 said...

The "I've never seen China" argument is lame, lame, lame. I've never seen China either but I know it exists because there is overwhelming evidence that it exists... The people, the language, the products, etc. That argument will never work for god because the only way you know he's there is by a feeling. That's not the same way you know China exists.

Tyson Devereux said...

Prove to me that China exists -

There are people who have been there? There are people who have seen God

There are people who teach about China?
There are teachers of the Gospel

There is the language to study?
We have the scriptures to study

So Prove to me that China exists
Better yet, Prove me that God doesn't

Heather B said...

Hope you don't mind if I interject here Mormon 411...

The one making the extraordinary claim is the one who has to prove his point. If I were to say that I had a purple dragon in my garage, I would be the one to prove that there was, not you proving there isn't. Same with the existence of God. You have no proof yet you claim he exists, You are the one making the claim, you have to back it up with EVIDENCE (that dirty little word), and a feeling is not proof.

I have enjoyed watching this play out Tyson. Its been rather entertaining and it helps me to remember that circular logic is no longer a part of my life. =)

Tyson Devereux said...

Heather, thanks for the swing and a miss. My point is that you can't prove anything any better than God exists. Mormon411 and others preach of proof, and yet fail to provide any of their own. They are easy to criticize, and yet have nothing to back up what they believe, which I'm still confused what that exactly is

Heather B said...

Show me god....YOU CAN'T. People that claim they have cannot provide evidence, not even your prophets.

Just because someone claims to have seen God, wrote about it and call it scripture have zero evidence to prove it. I can't prove that there is not a god, but again, I'm not the one making the claim that there is a magic being that grants wishes on a whim, favors only a select few and sacrifices his son.

Besides....exactly which GOD are you talking about. There are literally thousands. You might be worshiping the wrong one...

Logical fallacy...burden of proof. Look it up.

Mormon411 said...

No, Heather, I don't mind at all if you interject.

Tyson, you are an atheist too. You don't believe in my special imaginary friend, the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Sound incredibly absurd? Well, can you PROVE he doesn't exist?

And yes, the burden of proof lies on those making the extraordinary claims. And don't even try telling me that MY god isn't real because I know he was consumed for me.

Tyson Devereux said...

talk about circular logic- You've used your FSM analogy, and you use it again, and Heather has her own made up character. And I can't even begin to count how many times "brainwashed" has been used. It's starting to sound like a broken record. I thought you guys had more valid arguments than this. I didn't think it would be this easy to pick you guys apart. I'm kinda getting bored. Get back with me when you have a real argument -

Heather B said...

I was making an analogy, just as Mormon 411 did, you should know what those are because the Mormon church loves those...

We could go on and on about trying to prove or disprove there is a God. No one knows for 100%, but one thing that I do know is that the Mormon church is a fraud and the Mormon God is no God I would associate myself with.

You want something to discuss? How do you feel about your religion believing that the world is 6000 years old but there is literally mountains of evidence to discredit that.

Blacks have a curse? What about the evidence that says Europeans evolved FROM African tribes, not the "GOd" changing the color of their skin.

What about the evidence that clearly shows DNA evidence that says Indians are NOT from Israel but from Asia?

How about the Book of Abraham, the evidence that debunks the entire thing! Heard of the Book of Breathings/Book of the dead? Look into those...

How about the fact that you have NO idea where your tithing money goes, you just take your leaders word that it is used the way they say it is.

How about Joseph Smith and his polyandry? Him marrying 14 year olds... and don't use the "times were different then" approach- that can be debunked as well.

How does your wife feel about her having sister wives for all eternity? How about that manifesto of lies made in 1890?

How about Joseph's money digging.

How about the thousands of changes made to the BOM?

There is no such language called reformed egyptian?

How about that "Prophet of God" called Brigham Young and his inspired Journal of Discourses?

Second Anointing? Kinderhook plates?

Blood Oath? MMM? Adam/God?

I just wasted my time here. You won't read what I just typed. Maybe you know some of these issues and just trust in your leaders to lead you. If thats the case you have no hope. Heard of John Delin? He apologized for the church for years then finally admitted to himself its bogus. If you want to talk issues, I gave ya some. Lets debunk Mormonism then work on the whole "is god real" shit...

Anyway, I wonder why you are on a blog like this...you are instructed to not look at anything that contradicts Mormonism....you're way off your mark there Tyson. I may need to contact your bishop...

Mormon411 said...

We haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to arguments. You have failed to prove that god exists, so you can't claim that our arguments are easy to pick apart. Again, you are the one with the burden of proof and it all stands or falls on that. Now, as Heather suggested, if you want to discuss the 1001 problems that there are with Mormonism, be my guest, but be warned, you're entering territory that is dangerous to your testimony.

BTW, the fact that there is no god was my LAST conclusion... not my first. I gave up god after everything else had already fallen apart.

Tyson Devereux said...

Yep - I'm officially bored

I have heard those same arguments over and over and over. You forgot that Joe Smith uses satanic symbols. Golly, how did you miss that one? Seriously, it's kinda sad. I give you an A for effort, but your originality needs work. I'm glad you can read a pamphlet and recite them to me (I thought your whole basis was that you can think for yourself).

Your obviously not getting the whole proof argument (I shouldn't be surprised). A scientist doesn't prove his theory by debunking someone else's theory- or else he hasn't proven anything.

It's mormon411 who is so dependent on "proof". All I've heard is "debunking" of people's faith and yet fails to provide any "proof" for what he believes. What do you believe? What is your foundation, your proof? (I've already asked this question before which was avoided, returning the conversation back to how wrong I am). Can you not say what you believe? Before you begin warning me about the poison in my cup - maybe you should look down at your own and see that you have nothing in yours. Nothing! No foundation, no belief, no hope, no proof - Nothing. But you ignore that, don't you? You turn away from that (as you're known to do) and continue warning me when you know nothing about my cup.

(watch, you'll just pick out something trivial to argue on to show you have something to prove, and once again avoid the topic that you have nothing)

Mormon411 said...

I have stated very clearly here what I believe. If I retyped it for every person who asks, then I would be wasting a lot of time. If you want to know what I believe, then read past posts. It's all there.

I will say this... The journey from Mormon to atheist is not one that happens overnight. It's not like god failed to heal my eyes so I just shut him out. No, I gave him many years of faithful, unquestioning service. It was only after 30 years of feeling sucked dry by the church that I began to study it further. Even when I initially became inactive, I still believed it. And there for a while after I left the church, I believed in a higher power. Then I started thinking and asking those questions that everyone should be asking:

Is it possible to walk on water? No. Can a virgin be pregnant? No. Do dead people come back to life? No. I just answered those questions honestly and that was it. I found my answer.

If you want to know what atheists believe, you'll have to do a little back searching. I'm not going to spell it out every time someone questions me on it. If you really want to know, it's there if you're willing to find it.

Go free thinkers!

Heather B said...

This will be my last comment on this post...

Its not cut and dried as to what I believe in, if you were even curious at all. There are not 13 points of belief in atheism, unlike the 13 articles of faith. What I believe in changes almost daily, but being a free thinker I have that ability. What works for me today might not tomorrow, and I don't have the pressure of eternal damnation or guilt to suppress my feelings or my changing beliefs.

I believe in love. I believe in family. I believe in me. I believe in humanity and equal rights for all, I believe in freedom of thought. I believe in the power science and evidence. I believe that I have power in my life and I don't seek approval of men in SLC or a bishop to decide for me if I am of value. I believe in knowledge and the evolution of it. I believe my thoughts are of value and I should never be ashamed to question. I believe in truth and the power that comes from it. These are a few things that I believe.

Letting go of my belief in God was hard for me do. When I realized Mormonism was not what I valued as true, I had to be real with myself and realize the Mormon church made up a version of God to suit their needs. So what God was true then? I didn't believe in any other religion so what then? It was just a natural process to realize man designed God to suit his needs so I eliminated God to suit mine. Its not for everyone, but my energy is now focused in more realistic areas of my life.

And what's this pamphlet you talk about? My husband spent 5 years researching the church and I spent a year researching the history and validity of it. A pamphlet would have made my de-conversion so much more simple....

Mormon411 said...

Well said, Heather.

I will just add one thought. Some people might look at what you said and say, "If what you believe changes constantly, how can you have any sort of consistency in your life?" or something to that effect.

We change what we believe based upon better evidence.

Believe it or not, atheists are very open minded people. If you have a legit argument, we are willing to investigate it and change our beliefs if we find that you are right.

How do I know this? Because every single one of us has done this. We grew up in the church arrogantly thinking that we were so right but when evidence presented itself, we could not ignore it. We had to humble ourselves and admit that we were wrong.

Not one single ex-Mormon atheist, that I know of, walked away from god because of a failed blessing, but because the evidence simply is not there that he is real.

In fact, your only evidence is the Bible and, frankly, it sucks. Magical fruit, women from ribs, talking snakes, god brutally killing every person on the planet (except 8 or whatever it is), the absurdity of the flood and every species of animals (which is in the hundreds of millions) on one ship plus enough food for all of them to eat for nearly two years, etc.

Atheists think. And when real thinking takes place, god gets smaller and smaller until he is gone.

Tyson Devereux said...

Mormon411, thanks for poor effort. I love the "I have proof, but I don't have it on me" routine, once again avoiding the issue as you have done over and over - and then finishing your last comments again with an assault of criticism, as expected.

Heather - I appreciate your words, I truly did. I enjoy hearing what you believe. It's refreshing to hear. I believe in love too. I believe in family, and hope, and in truth. I believe in human equality and also freedom. Hopefully we can start focusing on what we believe in, instead of tearing each other down. It's getting old, and to be honest, it doesn't do much good. I've had countless people tell me what they've heard about mormons, and in the same breath tell me that from what they've observed from my wife and me (mainly my wife) is that we are nothing like what they had heard. So I'm not afraid of what you all have to say, but I think our time is better spent focusing on what we have in common, creating good instead of tearing down.

You can't prove anything to me, and I know I can't prove anything to you. I know this, but I have proof for myself. I have had several experiences in my life which I cannot doubt. I wish this was a discussion which I could share, but I know for myself- not because I've been told to believe. I've grown up with friends who are anti-mormon, and my father is as well. I've heard it all. I could have turned my back on the church at any moment. My own father even bribed and threatened me to not join the church. In my search I have received answers that are as real as anything I've experienced. I know for myself.

Well, I may peak in every once in a while - keeping you on your toes

Mormon411 said...

My last comment was an assault of criticism? I'm sorry you took it that way. I've read it over and can't see anything that was aimed at you.

I agree with what you said to Heather. We should focus on common beliefs and the good that each has to offer the world.

You are welcome back, Tyson. No hard feelings I hope. Keep us on our toes and we'll do the same to you. If Mormonism and religion works for you then (you won't believe I'm actually saying this) stay with it. If it truly does fulfill your life then I'm happy for you, and I'm as serious as I can be when I say that. You've stood up and defended what you believe and you have my respect for that.

Do drop by again.