This is just sad. I've recently become acquainted with an LDS girl who hasn't exactly followed the rules but wants to get back strong into the church. Our discussions, among other things, have been on the topic of religion.
I shared my views how religion causes hate and intolerance (which she, of course, disagreed with). That got us on the topic of the LDS church's shady history. Her reply to that, and I quote, was, "Do me a favor and don't educate me on Mormon history... I honestly like ignorance on things like that."
I said, "...if the church really wasn't true, wouldn't you want to know? What if it [the church] all really was just a made up story by a clever and charismatic con man? Wouldn't you want to discover that before you live your whole life devoted to it?"
Her reply, "Nope, not really."
So sad. This person's mind is forever trapped in the magical Mormon mindset. A person like me is the agent of Satan who is tempting her to fall away. She must remain strong! Resist those evil lies! Live in ignorance!
I wonder what they are all so afraid of? If their religion is so true, I would think they'd gladly take on any challenge and defend it.. But no, they all just want to bury their fingers in their ears and yell, "LA! LA! LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!"
Either that or excuse it all away as a "clever lie of the devil."
Ignorance is not bliss and the LDS church wants it's members to blindly follow without question. Truth is not found in blind ignorance and yet the LDS church makes a virtue of it!
I can't respect any organization that purposefully deceives it's members by withholding information and teaching them to stay ignorant. That is not a virtue. It is not what "god" would want his children to do. The Mormon's own doctrine instructs them to gain knowledge. And they do... Expect about their own history. That part is okay to conveniently leave out of their education.
Just like Boyd K. Packer said, "Some things that are true aren't very useful." Yep, especially when it is the REAL TRUTH about the awful things the church has done and now covers up.
"We believe in being honest..." ~ 13th Article of Faith. How ironic, considering that the LDS church has a rich history of dishonesty and then lying about it later!
20 comments:
So sad.
The longer I'm away the more I see a clear distinction of people in the church. One type is this lady you've mentioned, and it seems this type are hardwired to burry their heads no matter what information comes their way. I used to be like her until my world was shocked and I had to decide what I wanted more... Truth or ignorance.
Sure religion causes all that hate, like the Khmer Rouge pulling millions of people out of their homes and shooting them in the jungle or the Soviets starving millions of Ukrainians to death. Weren't all those guys Mormon?
The 20th century was a confusing time, but anyone with half a brain realizes it proved one thing: Atheism is ten times worse than Christianity.
Same here, Heather. You couldn't have convinced me for $1,000,000 that the church wasn't true. I'd have bet my life on it. All it takes is a little education and an open mind; both are things that the LDS church opposes.
Weston, I didn't say that religion causes all the hate and problems of the world but I do believe it causes a good part of them.
So atheism is 10 times worse than Christianity. I'd LOVE for you to prove that. The last time I checked it was religious fanatics who destroyed the twin towers. It is religious fanatics that oppose equal rights for ALL PEOPLE. It is religious fanatics that impede progress such as stem cell research that has the potential to relieve all sorts of suffering.
I have never heard on the news of an atheist group or individual causing any problems at all. In fact, here in SLC there are religious bill boards all over the place. No one touches them. But there is just ONE atheist bill board and it gets vandalized.
Who is the intolerant group? Atheists accept all people as they are and religious people want to change everyone. Many of them are even willing to do it using force and violence.
Sure, there are atheists who do bad things, but there are good and bad apples in every group and you can't [ethically] use those people to determine the worth of the whole group.
Now back up your claims or stop making them.
Listen very carefully: the communists who murdered millions of people in the 20th century, THEY WERE ATHEISTS, every one of them. MILLIONS, why can't you understand something so simple?
I've had a similar discussion before about this topic. Like I said in my last comment, there are good and bad apples in every group. You can't judge the group based on those.
Now, I would first ask, those murdering communist atheists, did they outright say they are atheist? Did they state that their purpose was to promote atheism?
I ask because many things have been done in the name of religion in order to further the cause of religion. Just because there is an atheist dictator, that doesn't mean atheism is his agenda. Doesn’t mean it’s not either…
You claim 10 times worse. George Bush has killed how many people because he believed god wanted him to be president. The 911 terrorists attacked America because their god hates us. Millions of people died in WWII by the hand of Hitler who, admittedly, historians cannot pinpoint his religious views, BUT he stated in his own book, Mein Kampf, that he was fighting for the work of the lord.
My argument is not that all atheists are blameless, but you can't judge the entire group by those do bad things. There are many good people who are religious. I've never stated otherwise. There are also many religious people who are plain evil.
I'll ask again, if religion makes people better, why is the ONE atheist billboard in SLC vandalized when several dozen religious billboards are not? If religious people are so godlike, why do they try to suppress equality for ALL people?
Why is there such a strong correlation between how religious a country, state, or city is and it's functionality? It is a fact that the more religious a region is, the more dysfunctional it is in terms of crime, divorce, violence, drugs, alcohol abuse, teen pregnancies, etc.
You can't judge the bushel by one apple. You can judge the entire bushel however, and the data I shared above does exactly that.
Well, I tried. On a lighter note, I grant to you the TESTILICUS MAXIMUS AWARD 2013. Because you are the only Anti-Mormon blog on the Internet to not block me. Yes I grant it to you oh Balls of Great Circumference.
I assure you, no award is necessary. Religion has nothing on science. Plus, I'm not in this to win debates but to open minds...
WELL NEXT TIME YOU GO LOOKING FOR ALL THE PROBLEMS WITH THE CHURCH, TAKE TIME TO READ THE WHOLE THING, INSTEAD OF JUST PICKING OUT WHAT CONVENIENTLY SUPPORTS YOUR BELIEFS(OR LACK THEREOF). YOU REFER TO THE COMMENT OF ONE YOUNG LADY AND SAY THAT OUR RELIGION TEACHES IGNORANCE, FALSE. IT CLEARLY STATES IN THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS THAT WE CAN NOT BE SAVED IN OUR IGNORANCE!!!! INTERESTING DON'T YOU THINK? WHY DO YOU THINK WE DEDICATE SO MUCH TIME TO SEMINARY, INSTITUTE, FAMILY HOME EVENING, CHURCH, SCRIPTURE STUDY, FULL-TIME MISSIONARY SERVICE ETC. FAR FROM IGNORANT WOULDN'T YOU SAY?
Mormon 411 is actually not a bad guy, we have gone at it several times but he is nothing compared to the vile absolute hatred I have gone up against on the Internet. Don't quite get it, but there are thousands, hundreds of thousands of folks out there that truly hate Mormons. He might be an Anti-Mormon type, but he is not a Mormon-Hater.
Brian, please keep in mind that I was a believing Mormon for over 30 years so I probably know "the whole thing" better than you do. I never doubted, never questioned, never turned down a calling. I prayed, read the scriptures, served a mission, married in the temple.
I am pretty sure that I said right in my post that the Mormons are instructed to gain knowledge. However, they are also instructed to not read or view anything that has views opposing the church. Instead of being taught to read what the opposition has to say, they are instructed to just ignore it and don't even look. That, my friend, is ignorance.
I know that Mormons study their own materials meticulously. But if education and a true understanding was the real goal, why do they refuse to hear the opposition? Truth is NOT found by only hearing one side and then making a decision. Both sides need to be able to present their case and then a decision about the truth should be made after CAREFULLY reviewing the testimony of both sides. Mormon truth is not found in this way and that's why I claim they are ignorant.
I made my decision to leave the church after several years of careful research, study, reading, pondering, and even praying. My choice to leave was not an ignorant one. Your choice to stay is...
Weston, wow I would never have expected a comment like that from you. Thank you for the respect. We certainly have had our rounds, and I've enjoyed it.
I DO NOT condone Mormon hating and I will join my voice with yours in speaking out against those who do so. All people are free to believe whatever they want and I will even defend a Mormon's right to believe in their religion. Tying in with what I said to Brian, I just don't want to see those beliefs made in ignorance. That's all I'm trying to do here.
You're not a bad guy either. You're certainly one of the more unorthodox Mormons I've ever encountered.
Mormons are good people, kind loving and generous. I would live next door to a Mormon any day. What they have done in this community where many people lost their homes in the floods is nothing short of amazing. Faithful people who love their neighbours, I have nothing but the greatest admiration for them, what they believe in is their right just like anyone who lives in a democratic society. You know people from their good works and yes I have seen good works from non-Mormons as well, but these people practise what they preach. So I am just not that sure what you practise. If you were right and the Mormons were wrong, then their religion would collapse. I really don't see that happening and I hope it never does. The world would be a very sad place without them in it.
Look, I've read and re-read this post for a while now - and there's something about it that needs to be addressed.
You chose this girl to be the poster girl for the ignorant laden mormon people - and I'm glad you did. You even quoted her response - in which I really hope this was an accurate word for word quote and not your frequent assumptions, creations, and exaggerations. You seemed to focus on just parts of her response as you usually do - you purposely focused on her use of the word "Ignorant" and saying that she would prefer to be ignorant about such things as "that" -
Okay - so what is "That" that she is referring to? The only reference we have is her statement beforehand - "Don't educate me on Mormon history . . ." Okay, so I can understand your point, makes sense. It would be important to be educated and know your history. I'm kinda curious what conversation actually took place during the "..." that you purposely left out, but that's not the point. Here's my point -
She started her statement with the words "Do me a favor and don't . . ." When ever someone starts off with a phrase like that - the problem is not with what is being said - but who is saying it and in what way. Her interesting phrase of "Do me a favor and don't . . ." is significant way beyond her zeal for ignorance. Her problem wasn't concerning education, it wasn't mormon history, it wasn't your "Truth" - the problem was the source - the problem was YOU!
And that's my point - I have heard the same babble you type here from several others. (It's funny to me how you all claim to be free thinkers, and yet spout the same descriptive junk as if it all came from some anti-mormon text book). Sorry, my point is I've heard it all and the problem is not the information - the problem is the source. You use sources that are proven to be . . . unreliable, lack of integrity, and well, ironically - untruthful. Being in a profession that depends on reliable sources - I would be ashamed to use the type of sources you provide.
Anyone can make claims - and it seems innocent enough to say as you do - to get all sides of the story. Unfortunately - I've heard claims in my profession that if and when they get out can cause harm. Its important to be informed - but if its coming from an improper source - it is better to stay away.
So in this case, I agree with this girl (shocker, I know). Her use of the word ignorant is interesting of course, but I think she demonstrated her frustration with the source that she chose to be ignorant on such things as "that" Good for her - to not waste her time on un-useful, unreliable sources.
If I need help knowing about my computer - I'll go to the computer engineer, not stop at the Pretzel shop. - thanks for the Pretzel
Cloudy,
I agree with you that Mormons are great people. It's not the Mormons themselves that I have a problem with but the organization. Almost every single Mormon I know is truly trying to be Christlike and charitable. They want to bring friends and family into the church because they really do believe that they are helping. Yes, Mormons are good people. I love them. That being said, I also feel that they are NOT good people just because they are Mormon. I believe that each person's goodness comes from within. Sure, religion influences behavior and decisions, but in the end it's not religion that makes people good but what they have in their hearts. I love Mormons. I just feel they are trapped in a cult.
Weston,
I must congratulate you on a very well written and thought-out comment.
I mostly agree with you. It was clear that whenever our conversations turned to religion that she didn't really want to talk about it. So after she asked me not to "educate" her, I didn't press it. To be perfectly honest, I don't remember what the "that" was because the conversation took place nearly a month ago. I truly wish I could remember because I would share it.
But yes, it was clear to me that she was getting on the defensive and I would possibly lose a friend by pushing it. So I don't. We just avoid talking about it now. She loves the church and I will never convince her to leave so I'm not even going to try.
I must not have shared the "..." because it wasn't relavent. I know it sounds like a cop out but I do seek the truth and I encourage my readers to seek the truth. This might sound strange coming from me, but anyone who really wants to learn about the Mormons, I would tell them to meet with the missionaries IN ADDITION TO reading what the "antis" have to say.
So let me ask you this. If you wanted to learn about Ford, would you go to a Honda salesman? I would! Because a Ford saleman is only going to share information that makes Ford look good! He is only going to share one side of the story. Yes, I would go to a Ford person, but I would also ask a Honda person, because the Honda person will give me a perspecive that the Ford person will not. I will then be able to make a more informed decision. You are cheating yourself if you only ask a Ford person...
to expand on that thought, would you make a purchase on Amazon by only reading 5 star reviews or would you want to read the negative as well.
Senigami,
Thank you, my point exactly.
Mormon411,
You cherry pick this lady looking for something to hold on to as an example of those who have faith (or believe in something they cannot see -- in science terms; which, for the record, is you as well so I have no idea what you mean when you say "religion has nothing on science").
You assume much. Many of us have waded through the deep and dark histories of this "organization" and come back with faith enlarged. By many of us, I mean me. Do NOT assume ignorance in those believe in this "organization".
Lastly, you have a weak cop-out, saying mormons are good, but the organization isn't. That isn't fair. You can mock things we hold dear and say, "It's not you, it's the other guys" when we get hurt? It doesn't work that way, let's be honest. You can say your share, that's what America is all about, but don't try to play the nice guy. It's a little hard to separate the fruit from the tree, isn't it?
The other gentleman who commented here is right. Atheism is just as much a "belief system" as Mormonism, and much greater evil has been done under such's umbrella than not. Plus, the comparison isn't a fair one, saying god-believing people have done more harm: humans have been worshipping gods since as long as we have record, when the belief in no such deities is a rather new evolution in philosophy with much less history behind it to cite from. I suspect that their will be just as many horrible things done in the world by those who profess to believe in no god in the thousands of years to come as has been done by those who profess to believe in a god.
Just be fair and accurate in your observations, is my only plea.
Sincerely,
A Nobody Mormon From The Internet
PS: That was me, not my wife, posting that last comment. I want to make sure she doesn't get backlash for my late night, electronic rantings.
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