All About Mormons
Here is a pro-Mormon site that has much information about Mormonism including a question and answer page. This page is for people to ask sincere questions about Mormonism. In fact, it appears that you can't post a question without it being moderated. Most of the questions are from newly baptized members or those seriously thinking about joining.
There was one question that I responded to:
"I want to join the church, but I have a problem with masturbation, how do I prepare myself to get baptized?"
The web site owners don't answer the questions themselves, but allow other visitors to answer. So I typed in the following reply:
"Masturbation is not a "problem". In Mormonism, any type of sexual sin is only slightly less evil than murder. So if you tell your bishop that you masturbate, he probably won't let you get baptized. And once you are baptized, they will pry into your personal life in private interviews. They will ask about your sexuality, masturbation, etc. Here's my advice... find a church that isn't so obsessed with it's members sexuality."
Unfortunately, like all pro-Mormon sites, this one moderates. My response was never posted.
Moderate, moderate, moderate! If you have the complete and utter truth, why do you all hide like cowards behind your moderated websites? If you have the truth, then come out and let's talk.
You've got to follow those pro-Mormon tactics and make sure that investigators never see the other side of the story. If anti-Mormon literature is nothing but lies, as you all seem to think, then why do you hide it from your members and investigators?
Mormonism creates it's own little world where everything is rose-colored. Inside the bubble, there is ignorance and bliss. Outside the bubble, all the evil anti-Mormons are desperately banging on the bubble, looking for a weak spot.
So, Mormons, as long as you live in your safe little bubble, the anti's can't hurt you. But the minute you poke your head outside, you'll get a fresh dose of reality, which, to most of you, is the most abhorrant thing you have ever experienced.
Life in Mormonism is truly like life in a bubble. Build up figurative and literal walls in order to keep the outside world out. Pat each other on the back for being such stud muffins and keep censoring. Just keep your head in the sand. That will keep your precious testimonies safe.
And keep sending out your "bubble recruiters" to knock on our doors and we will keep making them look like the ignorant fools they are.
I used to live in the bubble. Inside the bubble, everything is perfect. You have a fail-proof guide who is physically unable to give bad advice. You have your super-human priesthood which enables you to move mountains and bring dead people back to life. You have a book which is the "most correct of any book on earth" and it was written just for you. Inside the bubble, your young and innocent know more about god than the most educated scholars in the world. Your young and "unlearned" are able to confound even the most educated of wisemen. Inside the bubble, is salvation. Outside the bubble is wickedness and confusion.
This is literally the way it is and perfectly explains why every single pro-Mormon website I have EVER visited, does not tolerate any type of opposition. They moderate and delete comments that even have a hint of disagreement with them.
Mormons live in a bubble. And in that bubble, masturbation and any type of free-thinking is prohibited.
Monday, February 22, 2010
Saturday, February 20, 2010
The "Growing Body of Archaeological Support for the Book of Mormon"
"The fact is that there is a growing body of archaeological support for the Book of Mormon." Greg of SPAMLDS
Is that so, Greg? Where? Show us.
The real fact is that the LDS church has spent millions of dollars on archaeological research in the supposed Book of Mormon locale, and has turned up nothing!
So, Greg, if you're going to claim that it's a "fact" that there is a "growing body of archaeological support for the Book of Mormon" then you might want to site some sources next time.
Because if you can't show me any, then that means they don't exist. And don't give me any FARMS or FAIR bullshit because those guys are the laughing stock of the "real" world.
The Mormons so desperately want the church to be true that they will take any literature, from any source, and use any shred of a hint of evidence supporting the Book of Mormon. It's funny how this shred of "positive" Book of Mormon evidence suddenly out weights the volumes and volumes of evidence against it.
They will quickly accept any evidence in their favor, but reject any that opposes them.
But that's Mormon thinking for you.
When trying to prove anything, start with the asumption that the church is true and then work backwards from there.
Is that so, Greg? Where? Show us.
The real fact is that the LDS church has spent millions of dollars on archaeological research in the supposed Book of Mormon locale, and has turned up nothing!
So, Greg, if you're going to claim that it's a "fact" that there is a "growing body of archaeological support for the Book of Mormon" then you might want to site some sources next time.
Because if you can't show me any, then that means they don't exist. And don't give me any FARMS or FAIR bullshit because those guys are the laughing stock of the "real" world.
The Mormons so desperately want the church to be true that they will take any literature, from any source, and use any shred of a hint of evidence supporting the Book of Mormon. It's funny how this shred of "positive" Book of Mormon evidence suddenly out weights the volumes and volumes of evidence against it.
They will quickly accept any evidence in their favor, but reject any that opposes them.
But that's Mormon thinking for you.
When trying to prove anything, start with the asumption that the church is true and then work backwards from there.
Tuesday, February 16, 2010
FARMS and FAIR - What Are They Good For?
Absolutely Nothing!
FARMS - An informal collaboration of academics devoted to Mormon historical scholarship.
Formulating Artificial Research and Mendacious Stratagem
(Making up good-sounding shit and other dishonest tactics)
FAIR - A Foundation created to counter criticism of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Fabricating Anecdotes for Inexorable Retention
(Making up false stores to keep unyielding members)
Mormon Apologetics: Professional Excuse Makers for the Church.
If you have a tough question, go to these guys. They will fill your ears with so much bullshit that you won't know which way is up.
FARMS - An informal collaboration of academics devoted to Mormon historical scholarship.
Formulating Artificial Research and Mendacious Stratagem
(Making up good-sounding shit and other dishonest tactics)
FAIR - A Foundation created to counter criticism of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Fabricating Anecdotes for Inexorable Retention
(Making up false stores to keep unyielding members)
Mormon Apologetics: Professional Excuse Makers for the Church.
If you have a tough question, go to these guys. They will fill your ears with so much bullshit that you won't know which way is up.
Does the LDS Church Have ANYTHING Good About It?
For any who come across this blog and think that it is a "Mormon Hate" site, I would like to reassure you that it isn't. In fact, in all my years as an ex-Mormon, I've never seen a hate site. Although, to a Mormon, any site that is critical of the church is a hate site.
If this was a hate site, I would tell my readers things like:
"Burn a Book of Mormon."
"If you see a Mormon, punch them in the face."
"Go vandalize your local Mormon meetinghouse."
On the contrary, I would like to inform my readers that I love Mormons. They are my family, friends, clients, co-workers, and classmates. Yes, I think they are in a cult. Yes, I snicker inside when I notice they are wearing their holy G's. But I wish them no harm and I respect their right to religious freedom 100%.
Do I go around tooting my horn that I am an ex-Mormon? That their religion is false? That I author a controversial "anti-Mormon" blog? No, I simply inform them (when they ask) that I am not LDS. That's all they need to know. I have found that nearly all the LDS people who know that I am not LDS, are very respectful and gracious about it.
So, since this blog contains my very strong opinions against the LDS church, I thought I would throw in a change of pace and list all the positive things that exist about the church. Does the LDS church have anything good about it? I believe it does:
If this was a hate site, I would tell my readers things like:
"Burn a Book of Mormon."
"If you see a Mormon, punch them in the face."
"Go vandalize your local Mormon meetinghouse."
On the contrary, I would like to inform my readers that I love Mormons. They are my family, friends, clients, co-workers, and classmates. Yes, I think they are in a cult. Yes, I snicker inside when I notice they are wearing their holy G's. But I wish them no harm and I respect their right to religious freedom 100%.
Do I go around tooting my horn that I am an ex-Mormon? That their religion is false? That I author a controversial "anti-Mormon" blog? No, I simply inform them (when they ask) that I am not LDS. That's all they need to know. I have found that nearly all the LDS people who know that I am not LDS, are very respectful and gracious about it.
So, since this blog contains my very strong opinions against the LDS church, I thought I would throw in a change of pace and list all the positive things that exist about the church. Does the LDS church have anything good about it? I believe it does:
- The LDS wards are usually very socially oriented. They love and care for each other. One thing that I did like about going to church was the strong feeling of acceptance by the other ward members. I always did (and still do) like the people.
- The LDS church encourages its members to give selfless service.
- The LDS church teaches strong moral and family values.
- The LDS church teaches its members to be law abiding citizens.
- In my experience, the local Mormons have been accepting of my decision to no longer attend church. When they do ask me if I'm coming back, they are doing it with a sincere concern for my well being.
- I have no doubt, whatsoever, that most LDS people are genuinely trying to be good, god-fearing people.
- The LDS church is often one of the first to arrive and offer aid in times of natural disasters.
I hope that people can understand that there is a huge difference between "hate" and just sharing my reasons why religion is based on myth. Yes, I blog against the Mormon church. I do not hate Mormons. I do not condone any violence against Mormons.
My issues are not with the common LDS people but with the Mormon leaders, who, in my educated opinion, are knowingly deceiving millions of people. It is my hope that, because of websites and blogs like mine, they will someday come clean about their lies and about their past.
Friday, February 12, 2010
Why Does the Book of Mormon Quote the Bible?
There are numerous passages in the Book of Mormon that are strictly word for word from the Bible. Mormons explain this by pointing out that the "brass plates", which were obtained by Nephi after he killed their rightful owner, were actually the Old Testament. As Nephi studied the brass plates, he put his favorite quotes into his own writing and that is why they appear in the Book of Mormon. Plausable, not likely, but plausable.
For the Mormon's sake, lets say that they are right. The brass plates actually were the Old Testament. That being the case, we should expect to find that all the quotes in the Book of Mormon all come ONLY from the Old Testament.
There is no possible way that text from the New Testament could show up in the Book of Mormon because the two books were being written at the same time on opposite sides of the world. It would have been impossible for Nephi to quote from the NT, because it had not been written yet. In fact, Nephi was around 600 plus years before the authors of the NT.
Thus, if it were shown that text from the NT did actually appear in the Book of Mormon, what would that imply? It would imply that whom ever wrote the Book of Mormon had access to the New Testament. But how can that be, seeing as how the two Books were thousands of miles apart from each other?
If the Book of Mormon was really true, there would be no text AT ALL from the New Testament.
But there is...
Compare:
III Nephi 12:3-48;13;14
to:
Matthew 5-7
Now, of course, Mormons will say, "Of course they are the same because Jesus is sharing the same teachings to both groups of people."
Sure, if that was true, the text would be similar. But word for word?
The Bible has undergone extensive revisions and translations. The Book of Mormon was abridged by Mormon. What are the chances that the two sections of text turn out identical? Keep in mind that the LDS use the King James version of the Bible. Yes, the teachings would be similar, but the chances of them being word for word are almost nothing.
The same argument could also be made for the Old Testament quotes. They are even older than the New Testament quotes, and yet, somehow, they show up in the Book of Mormon word-for-word. The only plausable explanation is that whom ever wrote the Book of Mormon had access to a King James version of the Bible.
Mormon didn't.
Nephi didn't.
Joseph Smith did.
For the Mormon's sake, lets say that they are right. The brass plates actually were the Old Testament. That being the case, we should expect to find that all the quotes in the Book of Mormon all come ONLY from the Old Testament.
There is no possible way that text from the New Testament could show up in the Book of Mormon because the two books were being written at the same time on opposite sides of the world. It would have been impossible for Nephi to quote from the NT, because it had not been written yet. In fact, Nephi was around 600 plus years before the authors of the NT.
Thus, if it were shown that text from the NT did actually appear in the Book of Mormon, what would that imply? It would imply that whom ever wrote the Book of Mormon had access to the New Testament. But how can that be, seeing as how the two Books were thousands of miles apart from each other?
If the Book of Mormon was really true, there would be no text AT ALL from the New Testament.
But there is...
Compare:
III Nephi 12:3-48;13;14
to:
Matthew 5-7
Now, of course, Mormons will say, "Of course they are the same because Jesus is sharing the same teachings to both groups of people."
Sure, if that was true, the text would be similar. But word for word?
The Bible has undergone extensive revisions and translations. The Book of Mormon was abridged by Mormon. What are the chances that the two sections of text turn out identical? Keep in mind that the LDS use the King James version of the Bible. Yes, the teachings would be similar, but the chances of them being word for word are almost nothing.
The same argument could also be made for the Old Testament quotes. They are even older than the New Testament quotes, and yet, somehow, they show up in the Book of Mormon word-for-word. The only plausable explanation is that whom ever wrote the Book of Mormon had access to a King James version of the Bible.
Mormon didn't.
Nephi didn't.
Joseph Smith did.
Tuesday, February 9, 2010
Greg asks: Just what is it about SPAM that infuriates them so?
http://spamlds.ning.com/profiles/blogs/just-what-is-it-about-spam
Greg, I know you believe in the LDS church and you have a right to defend it. I wouldn't expect anything less.
The reason why we are "infuriated" is because your attitude stinks. You come across as cocky, holier-than-thou, condescending, know-it-all, and arrogant.
Everyone who is not Mormon automatically gets the title of "anti-Mormon" from you.
Anyone who disagrees with you is "narrow minded".
You try to make all "anti-Mormons" appear to be stupid and gullible.
But probably the worst, is that you censor. You don't allow people to defend themselves. You bash and trash them and then refuse to let them respond.
The only thing you have stated on your website that I agree with:
"The most despised TBM site on the internet!"
Greg, I know you believe in the LDS church and you have a right to defend it. I wouldn't expect anything less.
The reason why we are "infuriated" is because your attitude stinks. You come across as cocky, holier-than-thou, condescending, know-it-all, and arrogant.
Everyone who is not Mormon automatically gets the title of "anti-Mormon" from you.
Anyone who disagrees with you is "narrow minded".
You try to make all "anti-Mormons" appear to be stupid and gullible.
But probably the worst, is that you censor. You don't allow people to defend themselves. You bash and trash them and then refuse to let them respond.
The only thing you have stated on your website that I agree with:
"The most despised TBM site on the internet!"
More Hate and Intolerance Brought to You by SPAMLDS
Greg, of SPAMLDS, is up to his usual stone casting from the safety of his lair:
http://spamlds.ning.com/forum/topics/antimormon-pastor-involved-in
Unfortunately, some Baptist people were arrested while trying to take some kids out of Haiti. While it was illegal, most people believe they were genuinely trying to help.
Greg, who can't stand it unless he's stirring the pot, wrote a little blip about one of these Baptist preachers who isn't actually a baptist preacher, but an "anti-Mormon preacher". He accuses the man of using his pulpit to spread anti-Mormon hatred and intolerance.
Come on Greg, don't you think you're pushing it just a little bit too far?
If, by simply being Baptist, he is automatically an anti-Mormon, then you, by being Mormon, are anti-Baptist. By labeling the guy as you have, you are the one spreading intolerance. So someone has a different view point than you...
GET OVER IT!
Have you actually been to his church and heard him preach hate and intolerance? If not, then you're actually the one guilty of spreading hate and lies. He might have shared with his congregation the reasons why he believes the LDS church is not true, but I have news for you:
THAT IS NOT HATE AND INTOLERANCE!
To Greg, if you're not Mormon, then you are anti-Mormon. If you're not with him, then you are against him. If Greg has EVER told anyone the reason why he believes the Baptist church (or any church) is not true, then he, by his own definition, is guilty of hate and intolerance.
You have a serious persecution complex, Greg.
GET OVER IT!
You know how annoying and holier-than-thou those Evangelical Christians are? Greg makes them look like pussies! Greg is a Mormon extremist and if the prophet told him to defend it with violence, I wouldn't put it past him.
I despise this Greg guy more than I despise the Mormon leaders... and that's saying something.
http://spamlds.ning.com/forum/topics/antimormon-pastor-involved-in
Unfortunately, some Baptist people were arrested while trying to take some kids out of Haiti. While it was illegal, most people believe they were genuinely trying to help.
Greg, who can't stand it unless he's stirring the pot, wrote a little blip about one of these Baptist preachers who isn't actually a baptist preacher, but an "anti-Mormon preacher". He accuses the man of using his pulpit to spread anti-Mormon hatred and intolerance.
Come on Greg, don't you think you're pushing it just a little bit too far?
If, by simply being Baptist, he is automatically an anti-Mormon, then you, by being Mormon, are anti-Baptist. By labeling the guy as you have, you are the one spreading intolerance. So someone has a different view point than you...
GET OVER IT!
Have you actually been to his church and heard him preach hate and intolerance? If not, then you're actually the one guilty of spreading hate and lies. He might have shared with his congregation the reasons why he believes the LDS church is not true, but I have news for you:
THAT IS NOT HATE AND INTOLERANCE!
To Greg, if you're not Mormon, then you are anti-Mormon. If you're not with him, then you are against him. If Greg has EVER told anyone the reason why he believes the Baptist church (or any church) is not true, then he, by his own definition, is guilty of hate and intolerance.
You have a serious persecution complex, Greg.
GET OVER IT!
You know how annoying and holier-than-thou those Evangelical Christians are? Greg makes them look like pussies! Greg is a Mormon extremist and if the prophet told him to defend it with violence, I wouldn't put it past him.
I despise this Greg guy more than I despise the Mormon leaders... and that's saying something.
Monday, February 8, 2010
True Blue
I chuckled this morning as a humorous thought crossed my mind. I was thinking of Jim Carrey and his role of Fletcher, the hot-shot lawyer who can't survive for five minutes without telling a lie. But when his son makes a birthday wish that his dad can't lie for one day, Fletcher has to learn that there are certain people you should never lie to.
In one scene, Fletcher has discovered that he is physically unable to tell a lie and his day is going to pot. In the privacy of his office he tries desperately to "lie" about the color of his blue pen. Unable to do so, he eventually ends up on the floor of his office (with pen marks all over his face) admitting defeat:
"The pen is blue! The goddamn pen is blue!"
Watch the scene here:
I was laughing because not only is this a funny scene, but how it actually reflects the Mormon churches view of the world.
All the evil anti-Mormons who are so busy making up their lies, like Fletcher, have to lie. Without deception, they can't function. Lying is all they know.
Remember the statement: Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. I couldn't help but notice the correlation (not only symbolic but also nearly word for word) between Fletcher and all the "anti-Mormons" who, at the second coming of Jesus, will wring their hands and shout in dispair:
"The church is true! The goddamn church is true!"
In one scene, Fletcher has discovered that he is physically unable to tell a lie and his day is going to pot. In the privacy of his office he tries desperately to "lie" about the color of his blue pen. Unable to do so, he eventually ends up on the floor of his office (with pen marks all over his face) admitting defeat:
"The pen is blue! The goddamn pen is blue!"
Watch the scene here:
I was laughing because not only is this a funny scene, but how it actually reflects the Mormon churches view of the world.
All the evil anti-Mormons who are so busy making up their lies, like Fletcher, have to lie. Without deception, they can't function. Lying is all they know.
Remember the statement: Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. I couldn't help but notice the correlation (not only symbolic but also nearly word for word) between Fletcher and all the "anti-Mormons" who, at the second coming of Jesus, will wring their hands and shout in dispair:
"The church is true! The goddamn church is true!"
Thursday, February 4, 2010
My Response to the "17 Points of the True Church"
17 Points of the True Church of Christ:
1. Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3. The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)
5. The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6. The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)
7. The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)
12. The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)
13. The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14. The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15. The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)
17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)
And my response:
1. Joseph Smith organized the LDS church.
2. While many Christian churches do not bear Christ's name, many others do. Besides, there are numerous references in the Bible where the church is called the "Church of God."
3. This reference is clear that the body of true saints should be organzied with apostles and prophets. However, even a false church could use the Bible to structure themselves in a similar manner. Just because a church claims to have apostles and prophets does not make it a true church.
4. Points 3 and 4 are making the same argument. For my response to #4, please read #3 above.
5. Every Christian church on the planet claims divine authority.
6. This point is actually correct. It's too bad that the top level leaders of the LDS church ARE paid.
7. Again, the LDS church is not the only church that baptizes by immersion. Many others do as well. Does that mean they are true too? There is evidence that the Catholic church used to perform immersion.
8. Many Christian churches practice "laying on of hands".
9. What "divine healing" have you ever witnessed an LDS priesthood holder perform? Common colds and such don't count because they would have gotten better anyway. Show me the healing of a genetic disease and you'll have me convinced.
10. Many Christian churches teach that God and Jesus are separate individuals.
11. The reference to Luke 23:36-39 has absolutely nothing to do with God's body. The reference to Acts 1:9-11 is talking about the ascention of Jesus. He rose into heaven. He will descend from heaven. It's not talking about his body. It's talking about the manner in which he will re-appear. If Hebrews 1:1-3 is talking about God's body, I somehow missed it.
12. Preachers and ministers all over the world claim to be called by god.
13. Since the arguments in #5 and #13 are practically the same, please see my response to #5.
14. Lots of churches are missionary churches. Does that make them all true?
15. Acts 3:19-21 is not specifically talking about a restored church, but it appears to be talking about reversing the effects of the fall of Adam.
16. The reference in 1 Cor:15:16,29 is very vague. Paul does seem to be arguing for the case of baptisms for the dead. However, if baptisms for the dead was such an important detail, wouldn't there be more than one vague reference to it in the Bible? Wouldn't there be much more detail?
17. That's a poor argument. Many non-believers do much more good in this world than believers do. Judging the truth of a religion by the way it's members act is a very stupid thing to do. Even false churches produce good people and do good things.
Even if all 17 points did actually indicate that the LDS church is true, using fiction to prove more fiction is fruitless. Would you actually try to use a childrens book to prove that Humpty Dumpty was real? Just because Humpty Dumpty is in a book, it doesn't make him an actual entity.
Just because presents "show up" on Christmas morning, that doesn't mean that Santa Claus is real. Just because people do things in Jesus' name, it doesn't make Jesus real.
Not only that, but the Bible lists other characteristics as well that the true church should have. Some of them are listed in the previous post. Whoever put together this list of 17 was already a member and was looking only for points that already described the LDS church. If any of the points did not describe it, they left them out. So even if all the 17 points did indicate that the LDS church is true, it actually does not because the list is incomplete. It has been put together for the purpose of proving the LDS church true, not for a genuine search for the true church...
I rest my case.
1. Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3. The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)
5. The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6. The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)
7. The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)
12. The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)
13. The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14. The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15. The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)
17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)
And my response:
1. Joseph Smith organized the LDS church.
2. While many Christian churches do not bear Christ's name, many others do. Besides, there are numerous references in the Bible where the church is called the "Church of God."
3. This reference is clear that the body of true saints should be organzied with apostles and prophets. However, even a false church could use the Bible to structure themselves in a similar manner. Just because a church claims to have apostles and prophets does not make it a true church.
4. Points 3 and 4 are making the same argument. For my response to #4, please read #3 above.
5. Every Christian church on the planet claims divine authority.
6. This point is actually correct. It's too bad that the top level leaders of the LDS church ARE paid.
7. Again, the LDS church is not the only church that baptizes by immersion. Many others do as well. Does that mean they are true too? There is evidence that the Catholic church used to perform immersion.
8. Many Christian churches practice "laying on of hands".
9. What "divine healing" have you ever witnessed an LDS priesthood holder perform? Common colds and such don't count because they would have gotten better anyway. Show me the healing of a genetic disease and you'll have me convinced.
10. Many Christian churches teach that God and Jesus are separate individuals.
11. The reference to Luke 23:36-39 has absolutely nothing to do with God's body. The reference to Acts 1:9-11 is talking about the ascention of Jesus. He rose into heaven. He will descend from heaven. It's not talking about his body. It's talking about the manner in which he will re-appear. If Hebrews 1:1-3 is talking about God's body, I somehow missed it.
12. Preachers and ministers all over the world claim to be called by god.
13. Since the arguments in #5 and #13 are practically the same, please see my response to #5.
14. Lots of churches are missionary churches. Does that make them all true?
15. Acts 3:19-21 is not specifically talking about a restored church, but it appears to be talking about reversing the effects of the fall of Adam.
16. The reference in 1 Cor:15:16,29 is very vague. Paul does seem to be arguing for the case of baptisms for the dead. However, if baptisms for the dead was such an important detail, wouldn't there be more than one vague reference to it in the Bible? Wouldn't there be much more detail?
17. That's a poor argument. Many non-believers do much more good in this world than believers do. Judging the truth of a religion by the way it's members act is a very stupid thing to do. Even false churches produce good people and do good things.
Even if all 17 points did actually indicate that the LDS church is true, using fiction to prove more fiction is fruitless. Would you actually try to use a childrens book to prove that Humpty Dumpty was real? Just because Humpty Dumpty is in a book, it doesn't make him an actual entity.
Just because presents "show up" on Christmas morning, that doesn't mean that Santa Claus is real. Just because people do things in Jesus' name, it doesn't make Jesus real.
Not only that, but the Bible lists other characteristics as well that the true church should have. Some of them are listed in the previous post. Whoever put together this list of 17 was already a member and was looking only for points that already described the LDS church. If any of the points did not describe it, they left them out. So even if all the 17 points did indicate that the LDS church is true, it actually does not because the list is incomplete. It has been put together for the purpose of proving the LDS church true, not for a genuine search for the true church...
I rest my case.
The 17 Points of the True Church
By Richard Packham
There has been floating around for some time a list of "Seventeen Points of the True Church" that supposedly was compiled by a group of people studying the Bible as students (or servicemen, or whatever), based on the church Jesus established as described in the New Testament. According to the story (of which there are conflicting versions), when these people broke up and went on about their lives (after college, after the war, whatever), each of them searched diligently among the various religions for the "true church" according to the list of points. Many years later, they all discovered that each of them had independently found... Guess! Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! Oh, isn't that a heart-warming testimonial?
Here is the list.
17 Points of the True Church of Christ:
1. Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3. The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)
5. The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6. The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)
7. The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)
12. The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)
13. The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14. The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15. The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)
17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)
Quite by coincidence, I recently received the following from an old high school pal of mine:
Dear Richard,
I know you are interested in questions having to do with religion. You might find the following of some interest.
During my college days a group of us fellows used to get together to discuss religion. We all belonged, more or less, to different churches, but none of us was very devout or spiritual, and we realized that our lack of enthusiasm for the churches of our birth was because we weren't certain that we were in the "true church" of our Lord. But we felt we needed something in our lives, and so we met regularly with our New Testaments and studied carefully, making notes of what points we might look for, to find the True Church. After about a year of meeting, studying, and praying together, we had our list of twenty points. If we found a church with all twenty, we would know we had found the True Church, and we promised to inform all the other members of the study group.
We parted, and our lives took us each in a different direction. But each of us carried the list, and each continued his solitary search. Here is our list. After you have studied it, I will tell you the amazing result of our searches.
THE TWENTY POINTS OF THE TRUE CHURCH
Teachings of the True Church:
1. There will be no physical, visible coming of the Kingdom of God (John 18:36, Luke 17:21).
2. The celebration of the Lord's supper includes bread, wine (Matt 26:26-29) and the washing of each others' feet (John 13:4-15).
3. Marriage and divorce are frowned upon (1 Cor 7, Matt 19:9, Mark 10:2-12).
4. The Jewish Temple ritual will be observed (Acts 2:46).
5. The Church takes priority over family (Luke 14:26, 12:51-53, Matt 10:21).
6. Women must cover the head while praying (1 Cor 11:5-10).
7. Eunuchs will have special respect in the Church (Matt 19:12).
8. Only two commandments: Love God and love thy neighbor (Matt 22:36-40).
Members of the True Church can be recognized by the following:
9. They hold all things in common ownership (Acts 2:44-45).
10. They do not sin (1 John 3:6-9).
11. They can drink poison without harm (Mark 16:18).
12. They do not strike back if you strike them (Matt 5:39).
13. If you ask to borrow anything from them, you do not have to return it (Luke 6:30).
14. They never have to hire movers or earthmoving equipment, or use UPS; they can literally move anything by the power of God (Matt 17:20, 21:21, Mark 11:23).
15. They have no retirement plans, savings account, or food supplies stored away (Matt 6:25-34). And no possessions (Matt 19:16-21, Mark 16:21, Luke 18:22).
16. They never pray in public (Matt 6:5-8).
17. They are like sheep or children (Matt 19:14, 18:3-4, Mark 10:15, John 10:2-27, Heb 13:20).
18. They do not go to a doctor when ill, but heal each other with prayer (James 5:13-15, Mark 16:18).
19. Their children are not rebellious; they kill them if they are (Matt 15:3-9).
20. They do not die (John 8:51, 11:25-26).
I confess that I never found a church that fulfilled all twenty of these points as described in the New Testament. Recently I happened to meet another member of the group, whom I had not seen since our days together, and he had made the effort to track down every member of that original group. And here is the amazing part of our story: Every single one of us had independently come to exactly the same conclusion:
THERE IS NO TRUE CHURCH!"
There has been floating around for some time a list of "Seventeen Points of the True Church" that supposedly was compiled by a group of people studying the Bible as students (or servicemen, or whatever), based on the church Jesus established as described in the New Testament. According to the story (of which there are conflicting versions), when these people broke up and went on about their lives (after college, after the war, whatever), each of them searched diligently among the various religions for the "true church" according to the list of points. Many years later, they all discovered that each of them had independently found... Guess! Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! Oh, isn't that a heart-warming testimonial?
Here is the list.
17 Points of the True Church of Christ:
1. Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
3. The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)
5. The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)
6. The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)
7. The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)
12. The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)
13. The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14. The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)
15. The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)
17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)
Quite by coincidence, I recently received the following from an old high school pal of mine:
Dear Richard,
I know you are interested in questions having to do with religion. You might find the following of some interest.
During my college days a group of us fellows used to get together to discuss religion. We all belonged, more or less, to different churches, but none of us was very devout or spiritual, and we realized that our lack of enthusiasm for the churches of our birth was because we weren't certain that we were in the "true church" of our Lord. But we felt we needed something in our lives, and so we met regularly with our New Testaments and studied carefully, making notes of what points we might look for, to find the True Church. After about a year of meeting, studying, and praying together, we had our list of twenty points. If we found a church with all twenty, we would know we had found the True Church, and we promised to inform all the other members of the study group.
We parted, and our lives took us each in a different direction. But each of us carried the list, and each continued his solitary search. Here is our list. After you have studied it, I will tell you the amazing result of our searches.
THE TWENTY POINTS OF THE TRUE CHURCH
Teachings of the True Church:
1. There will be no physical, visible coming of the Kingdom of God (John 18:36, Luke 17:21).
2. The celebration of the Lord's supper includes bread, wine (Matt 26:26-29) and the washing of each others' feet (John 13:4-15).
3. Marriage and divorce are frowned upon (1 Cor 7, Matt 19:9, Mark 10:2-12).
4. The Jewish Temple ritual will be observed (Acts 2:46).
5. The Church takes priority over family (Luke 14:26, 12:51-53, Matt 10:21).
6. Women must cover the head while praying (1 Cor 11:5-10).
7. Eunuchs will have special respect in the Church (Matt 19:12).
8. Only two commandments: Love God and love thy neighbor (Matt 22:36-40).
Members of the True Church can be recognized by the following:
9. They hold all things in common ownership (Acts 2:44-45).
10. They do not sin (1 John 3:6-9).
11. They can drink poison without harm (Mark 16:18).
12. They do not strike back if you strike them (Matt 5:39).
13. If you ask to borrow anything from them, you do not have to return it (Luke 6:30).
14. They never have to hire movers or earthmoving equipment, or use UPS; they can literally move anything by the power of God (Matt 17:20, 21:21, Mark 11:23).
15. They have no retirement plans, savings account, or food supplies stored away (Matt 6:25-34). And no possessions (Matt 19:16-21, Mark 16:21, Luke 18:22).
16. They never pray in public (Matt 6:5-8).
17. They are like sheep or children (Matt 19:14, 18:3-4, Mark 10:15, John 10:2-27, Heb 13:20).
18. They do not go to a doctor when ill, but heal each other with prayer (James 5:13-15, Mark 16:18).
19. Their children are not rebellious; they kill them if they are (Matt 15:3-9).
20. They do not die (John 8:51, 11:25-26).
I confess that I never found a church that fulfilled all twenty of these points as described in the New Testament. Recently I happened to meet another member of the group, whom I had not seen since our days together, and he had made the effort to track down every member of that original group. And here is the amazing part of our story: Every single one of us had independently come to exactly the same conclusion:
THERE IS NO TRUE CHURCH!"
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