Apologist Logic

How might an apologist respond to my argument that:

1) Animals don't talk.

2) There are talking animals in the Bible, so therefore

3) The Bible is not true.

The following steps might be the logic an apologist would come up with:

1) There are talking animals in the Bible.

2) The Bible MUST be true.

3) Parrots can talk

4) An ancient civilization has two words for "parrot" and "snake". These two words are very similar.

5) Therefore, it was actually a talking parrot in the Bible and the translator accidentally put "snake" instead of "parrot".

6) Yeah! It must be true afterall!

7) Elaborate the above 6 points with heaps of irrevalent bullshit.

Can you see that no matter how absurd their defense is, they actually believe it explains away all their troubles? Any answer, no matter how completely far fetched, will do. As long as there IS an answer, it doesn't matter what it is. Truth is expendable as long as the myth is defended.

Internet Mormons are no different. In the end, something has to change in order for the rest of the story to stay true. In this case, the snake was changed to a parrot. But does this argument hold water? Let me show you why it wouldn't, using LDS scriptures and prophetic teachings...

D&C 76: 28

"And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—"

Notice how, in the D&C, Satan is referred to as the serpent. Now, if it actually was a parrot in the Garden of Eden, wouldn't prophets be teaching the correct principle? Isn't that what the restoration was all about? To correct the mistakes of the old church and the Bible? So if the animal in the Garden of Eden was actually a parrot, why do modern scriptures and prophets still teach that it was a snake or serpent?

Point this out to an Internet Mormon and he will probably come up with some bullshit about why the actual type of animal form satan took is not really relavent. In other words, he will shrug it off with a desperate explanation and then testify that he still knows it's true.

This, of course, is just an example that I came up with out of my head. I don't know if there is any ancient civilization that actually has two similar words for snake and parrot. But if I was an apologist, it doesn't matter. Just tell them that there is and they will believe you. You're the "scholar" so you must know.

This type of reasoning is used to defend all aspects of Mormonism. I was recently talking with Seth R., an internet Mormon, who was trying to explain to me why the proof that the Book of Abraham is false is irrevalent. He tried using defenses like, "Egyptian pictograms were popular in certain quarters and were often taken, copied, and adapted to stories beyond the original Egyptian meaning."

Is that so? Where is the reference you conveniently forgot to supply? (If you give me a reference to any FARMS or FAIR material, then I will just laugh in your face. Where is their reference?)

My argument: The papyrus was dated 2000 years after Abraham's time.

Seth's reply: It was actually a copy produced by a scribe 2000 years later.

My argument: Sounds plausable, but Joseph Smith claimed that the papyrus was literally written by the hand of Abraham himself.

Seth's argument: So? What is to stop the scribe from just writing that down. That was really common practice (no reference provided).

My argument: If a scribe wrote a copy of Abraham's writings, then why does the translation have nothing to do with Abraham?

Seth: Because you need a deeper understanding to be able to translate the actual message.

Do you see how the bullshit just keeps getting thicker and thicker? Seth is digging himself into a hole that takes more and more BS to maintain. The simple explanation is simply that Smith found a piece of papyrus and pretended to be able to translate it. That's the only explanation that does not require a TON of mental gymnastics.

Oh, and make a reference to "mental gymnastics" or "jungle gym" and suddenly his next defense tactic is to accuse you of calling names.

When you point out that he's full of shit because you have never called him a name (and that "jungle gym" is not a name) he will next accuse you of getting agitated and will then tell you that he's won the debate because you lost your cool first.

What the fuck? That's your pathetic defense?

Here's a link to the comment section where this discussion took place. Then you can see that nothing I have stated here is out of context (because that will be his next argument). https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6889091745815151535&postID=2237199548309222494

A lot was said in this comment section. The discussion about the Book of Abraham begins about 2/3 of the way through it.

I don't need to call anyone names. If you use these types of defense tactics, then you ARE a moron!

How Would You React?

Mormons, what would you do if you turned on the news one day and saw Thomas S. Monson announce that he really isn't a prophet and none of the church presidents before him were prophets as well?

What if he confessed that Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon and was guilty of many affairs on his wife? What if he admitted that the church was nothing but a huge fraud? What if he admitted that they have lied for years and years about certain events in church history? What if the other leaders and authorities said so as well?

What if it came right from the horses mouth? What would you do?

I know some of you would keep believing anyway, because you "know" it's true. Others of you will say that would never happen so I'm not even going to think about it.

But to those with a shred of common sense, what would you do? Seriously, what would you do?

Enjoy Life

Tonight I was in bed and was thinking about a lot of things. I was hungry too, so while the oven is warming up to cook me a midnight pizza, I will write out some of my thoughts.

Life is meant to be enjoyed. From an atheist perspective, this life is the only one we have. There is no god in heaven who is watching us under his microscope. There is not a huge list of commandments that god demands that we obey.

I honestly and sincerely hope there is an afterlife. I would love to once again see loved ones who are gone. But I'm not putting any money on it. I do not believe there is an afterlife.

I underwent a fairly simple surgery. As I laid on the operating table and the sedative drugs began to take effect, I slipped off into a peaceful nothingness. While I was unconscious, the doctor was able to open my body and do the procedure. I felt nothing. I remember nothing. In fact, the two-hour surgery went by in a split second.

When the drugs knocked me out, everything went dark and then I was opening my eyes and it was over. Two hours went by in the blink of an eye. That is what being dead is like. You just shut your eyes and you become nothing. You are completely unaware of your surrounding and even your own existance.

You feel no pain, sorrow, love, hate, etc. Nothing.

I am very grateful for my surgery because it showed me what death will be like. It's nothing to fear. You just close your eyes and cease to exist.

So, while I sincerely hope that there is an afterlife, I seriously doubt that there is. This life is it. This life is my only chance to live. To laugh. To love. If I waste it following some imaginary god and his imaginary rules, then what a sad life that is.

Now is the time to cherish loved ones. Now is the time to enjoy life. Now is the time to live.

The atheistic view of life might seem sad and depressing to believers. If there is no afterlife, then what is the purpose of life? I don't know. If we just die and cease to exist, then why are we even here? I don't know. While, yes, it is sad to think that this life could be it, it only makes the time we have here that much more precious. It makes our time here and now with loved ones that much more meaningful.

Why look to an uncertain future when we are here and in the now? Don't waste the now dreaming about some fairy tale future. Enjoy the now because it most likely is all you have.

So, go sky diving. Have a one night stand. Get so wasted that you can't remember the night before (maybe just do that once, LOL). Go back to school. Help others. Do whatever you need to do to make your life good.

Life is not meant to be endured. It is meant to be enjoyed.

Why Are Mormons So Afraid of A Lie?

I've decided recently that if I come across a real hefty Mormon blogger that I would post a link to their site/blog on my side bar. That way, no one can accuse me of cherry picking. Not only that, but I strongly feel that everyone should hear BOTH sides of the story. If a church investigator found my blog, I would NOT want them to make a decision to not join the church until they have heard the churches version as well.

That is because I truly am pro-truth.

And if an investigator reads my blog and ends up choosing to join the church anyway, then I wish him or her all the best.

I will tell you right now, that TBM's do not share my sense of honor in this matter. If they had their way, they would hack this blog and delete it and let god fry me with a thunder bolt. They, unlike myself, will NOT encourage investigators to hear both sides. They will do anything they can to prevent an investigator from finding a site like mine.

If they have all the truth and if god is on their side, then what the hell are they all so afraid of?

That should tell you something right there. If they are so afraid of the opposition, then what are they hiding? You would think that an organization that claims to have all truth and all power, would actively encourage members and investigators to read and study "anti-Mormon" literature. If it is nothing but lies, then what do they have to fear?

A lot, obviously. Hmmm, maybe they aren't lies afterall...

Oh, by the way, every Mormon blog that I have ever tried commenting on censors. They will either moderate your comment, or delete it shortly after it is posted. Again, I ask, what are you all so afraid of? The only comments I delete here are SPAM. Everyone else has the right to say WHATEVER they want, for or against the church.

If the tactics of anti-Mormons are just to lie, lie, lie, then the pro-Mormon tactics are to sensor, sensor, sensor. They can't prove that our arguments are lies (although in their Mormon minds they think they already have), however, we can prove that they do sensor. How? Leave a comment against the church on any of their blogs and see how long it is before it disappears.

Seriously, though. If all we anti's can do is lie, then what are you afraid of? Why do our lies require you to juggle your beliefs and twist the stories? If our lies are so easily debunked, as you all seem to think, then why do they continue to convince thousands of people each year to leave the church? If we engage in nothing but lies, then why do you even bother to debate with us?

I think the LDS church is shaking in their collective boots.

The Blissful Lie Vs. The Uncomfortable Truth

Maybe I've said this before, but the problem with trying to reason with a religious person and show them that their belief system has no evidence has no effect because they agree with you...

Religion IS all about faith. It's not supposed to have evidence. By blindly believing in something that has no proof, you are taking the high road and god will be really happy with you.

To them, it's noble to believe. To me, it's just plain insane.

Why would god, who supposedly created the universe, require his followers to believe in fairy tales in order to be saved? If god created the world, then he created science.

Think about it. If Mormons are going to be gods someday, then why do they oppose science? They will need a thorough understanding of science if they are going to be creating their own worlds, right? But the Mormon god just wants a bunch of gullible suckers who believe any story some charismatic dude tells them.

For crying out loud, folks! Do you seriously believe in a god who will only reward those who believe in fairy tales and nonsense? Do you seriously believe that this all-merciful god is going to damn everyone who uses their brains? Your god wants all of his followers to be mindless zombies.

The Bible has stories about talking animals. Come on! Use your brain. Do animals talk? Since we know they don't, then the Bible is false. It's that simple.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything except to just use your brain. In religion, using your brain and "intellectualizing" is viewed as evil. Shouldn't that be a huge red flag? God doesn't want you to think? If god has all the attributes that they claim he does, then would he really damn you just for thinking?

Religion is a prison. And while some are happy and comfortable, it is still a prison. It's not a prison of the body, but of the mind. In all truthfulness, I don't know which is worse.

Religion is just a way to control people and exploit them of their time and money. There is no god. There is no Jesus. It's all just a myth. Religion gives answers to the questions we don't understand, but is a lie any better than just admitting that "we don't know"?

Religion provides a comforting lie; atheism gives the uncomfortable truth.

I have actually had believers tell me that they would rather live the comfortable lie. If it is a lie, they don't want to know. They want to die believing that the moon is made of cheese. I can't do that. While the truth sometimes hurts, I would rather have it any day than live in mental bondage.

Greg the Coward of SPAMLDS

Once again, Greg West of SPAMLDS is up to his usual pro-mormon tactics....

He has just replied to a blogger who has wickedly "intellictualized" himself out of the church. Greg gives no link or any other type of identifier as to who this mystery blogger is.

2. Encourage your investigators to ONLY hear your side. Discourage them from reading or asking any outside sources. Make sure that they only hear your biased version of things.

And, as usual, is hiding behind the thick and safe walls of SPAMLDS where he can censor comments and make sure that no "anti-Mormon" material breaches those walls.

5. Sensor! If you have a pro-Mormon website, only allow comments to be posted that agree with you.

How come you didn't provide a link, Greg? I know your thinking... why provide the link when it will just expose more Mormons to anti-Mormon lies. Right?

1. Just tell the stuff that sounds good. If anything is negative, make sure you hide it. This is known as the "milk before meat" principle; just never share the meat.

Here is the link to Greg's response. I'm going to reply to some of it here since I obviously can't over there: http://spamlds.ning.com/profiles/blogs/a-reply-to-critical-thinking

He starts out by stating outright that ALL anti-Mormon claims are purposefully written to be deceiving. Greg, maybe they're actually written to expose REAL Mormon history.

Near the end, he accuses this blogger of being narrow-minded. Yes, Greg, it takes a narrow minded person to examine the evidence and then have the balls to admit that his belief system was wrong.

This person blogs his change of religion and, like the wolf you are, you are right there to tear him apart as soon as he walks out of the Mormon gate. Can you feel the Christ-like love here?

I propose that a true narrow-minded person is one who defends his position at all costs, in spite of mountains of evidence to the contrary. You are not only narrow-minded, Greg, you're a know-it-all dickhead who isn't happy unless you can find some ex-Mormon to thrash on behind the safe walls of your SPAM fortress.

Why not provide the link to this blogger? Why not allow him to defend himself while you trash him on your site? Greg, you're nothing but a coward who is hurdling stones from the safety of your lair...

According to Greg, the definition of someone who is narrow-minded: anyone who doesn't use my methods to arrive at my conclusions.

In case you can't tell, I really despise that condescending jerk!

Waterfalls and False Prophets

For this last Christmas, I received, from a concerned family member, the book entitled: Why?: Powerful Answers and Practical Reasons for Living LDS Standards.

I thumbed through this book expecting to find what the title suggests... practical reasons; however, it's just full of more Mormon propaganda... "Because the prophet says so. You don't want to disobey a living prophet, do you?"

For example, on page 14, a picture is shown of a lovely river with a beautiful sunset in the background.

Just below that picture is an identical picture, however it has not been cropped and the river plunges into a deadly waterfall.

The analogy, poorly attempting to be made, is that we, as normal people, have only a limited view of our world. What appears to be beautiful might actually be deadly. Only a Mormon prophet can see the "whole picture". The prophet can see the deadly waterfall and can warn us of danger. If we heed his word, we will be safe.

I bet you know what I am going to say next...

The recent earthquake in Haiti has leveled cities and killed people by the hundreds of thousands. Where was the prophets warning? Where were you, Thomas S. Monson, to warn the world of the danger that only you can see? No doubt there were LDS people living in Haiti and no doubt some of them died. Where was the prophet's voice of warning to the faithful tithe-paying, garment-wearing LDS people living in Haiti?

You have failed them, Thomas S. Monson. Shame on you! False prophet!

What natural disaster has any Mormon prophet ever correctly predicted?

Religious people view natural disasters as gods way of giving us a "wake up call". Non-believers see it as simply plate tectonics. God isn't punishing anyone. The earth has been having earthquakes and violent storms for millions of years and it has nothing, whatsoever, to do with human habitation or god's wrath.

If you think that I am exaggerating the LDS belief that prophets can literally see and predict the future, then consider this image that I scanned directly from page 15:
Click on this image to enlarge it.

Prophets are guaranteed to be able to see the future. So then how come they never do? Where was Hinckly during the tsunami and Hurricane Katrina? Where was Monson during the earthquake in Haiti? Why couldn't the prophet foresee the impending attack on the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001?

Notice how they do give examples of prophets predicting the future (including natural disasters) from the scriptures. But in a fictional work, it is easy to have your character do amazing things. There is not one example from any actual living and breathing Mormon prophet. Not one. In fiction, it is easy to predict the future. In real life, it isn't.

If prophets are guaranteed to be able to predict the future, then...

...HOW COME THEY DON'T???

The Last Few Days

Wow, it's been a couple of exciting days here at Mormon411. I've been flooded with comments from TBM's and I've had a lot of fun responding.

I'd just like to comment on a couple of things from these discussions.

First, is that Mormons view me and anyone like me as evil and angry. Nothing you can say or do will change their mind.

Second, that internet Mormonism is alive and well. For example, when I show an internet Mormon that a certain thing really makes the church look bad his only defense is (to quote the late Gordon B. Hinckley), "So what?"

Third, Mormons judge the world based upon their own values. They view everyone who doesn't live by their principles as miserable and unhappy.

Fourth, testifying, as a last resort, is also alive and well as I referred to in my post entitled "Re: Tactics of anti-Mormons".

Chalk this up as another outburst of my uncontrollable anger...

Jesus Loves You...

...but then, again, so does Barney!

...but everyone else thinks you're an asshole!

...as long as you pay your tithing!

...but not in that way. Pervert!

...but I'm his favorite!

...but I hear he's not picky!

...whatever helps you sleep at night!

...but only because he has to!

What? You didn't pay your tithing and you want to go to the temple?



Run that past me one more time! You want me to go to earth, get my ass whipped, bleed from every pore, and then die on a cross wearing a crown of thorns?



This post was meant to be funny, so if you got offended...



"For god was such a cowardly chicken shit, that he had to send someone else to do the hard stuff." Mormon411 3:16

Why God Exists

Have you ever stopped to think that 'god' is actually just a fill-in-the-blank?

You see, mankind has always asked the question "Why?"

When he can't answer it, god must have done it.

What Is A Bigot?

What is a bigot? According to dictionary.com a bigot is:

"One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

So anyone who publishes crap about those who no longer believe in the LDS church, for no other reason than that they left the church, is a bigot.

If you are unable to accept the fact that former believers no longer believe, then you are a bigot.

If you are a bigot, then you are basically an intolerant prick who can't accept anyone unless they are just like you.

I strongly believe in letting everyone believe whatever they want to believe. As long as their religious beliefs don't threaten my [or my family] physical safety, then I'm fine with it.

I can get on here and post about how the LDS think because guess what??? I know how they think. I used to be one. I am an expert on Mormon thinking because I thought that way myself for almost 30 years.

So those know-it-alls who think they are experts on ex-Mormons, and explicitly express their beliefs that ex-Mormons are evil and haters, those are the bigots. They are intolerant and arrogant.

The world would be a better place without bigots. In fact, the world would be a better place without religion.

No one likes bigots.

Do you know why they named unwanted and unsolicited email after the snack meat known as spam? Because no one likes it! No one likes SPAM.

UPDATE

I stated, "If you are unable to accept the fact that former believers no longer believe, then you are a bigot."

I retract that statement due to a comment from Ammon. I will leave it in the original post so that he won't appear to be commenting on a statement that no longer exists.

To A Mormon, What Is An Anti-Mormon?

As I've been discussing lately, Greg West spends most of his spare time "exposing anti-Mormonism for what it is: hate."

Because the LDS church is the literal kingdom of god on earth, it must be defended at all costs. Those who speak in opposition to the church are seen as literal agents of Satan.

The LDS church itself has done it's fair share of religion bashing, despite their claims to the contrary. In the Pearl of Great Price, you can read Joseph Smiths own words when he said that none of the churches are true and that their creeds are an abomination to the lord.

So the LDS believe that it is okay to badmouth other churches because they are all supported by the devil. They exist to keep good people away from the real truth.

But anyone who dares speak evil of the lords kingdom on earth is a hater. People who simply publish their findings about real church history are actually promoting hate, at least that's what the LDS think.

Isn't it amazing that anyone who disagrees with the church in any way is accused of being a hater? And the Mormons think that they aren't bigots.

For simply not believing or stating your opinion against the church, you are a hater.

It has nothing to do with presenting the myriad of evidence against it. If you have any evidence against the church, you made it up and are therefore a liar and a hater.

It's no wonder then, that they react so strongly when anyone challenges them. They are the self-righteous bigots holding the trump card and anyone who dares to challenge them will go directly to hell.

Whatever happened to "love your enemy?"

But an anti-Mormon is not your enemy. He is your arch-enemy. An enemy can threaten your physical safety and take your life. An anti-Mormon can threaten your soul. There is no tolerance for such a person. They must be removed from society where they cannot spread their hate and lies.

And why do they do it? For the simple reason that they hate. In fact, even anti-Mormons know the church is true. But they are so full of hate and pride that they have to fight against it.

This is LDS logic.

In the LDS mind, the whole world knows that the church is true. But everyone who does not accept it is just too prideful to admit that his belief system is wrong. Everyone KNOWS it's true. Amazing. Simply amazing!

Even though the true agenda of an "anti-Mormon" is to simply tell the truth about the Mormon church, Mormons see them as literal agents of Satan who are working overtime to steal away as many noble souls as possible to the cause of darkness. Why do they do it? Because they hate and they want everyone else to hate too.

Anti-Mormons are miserable people who know the church is true but fight against it anyway because they can't stop. They have to lie. They are addicted to deception. They are miserable and so want everyone else to be miserable with them. They sin and deny god in order to escape their own anger and guilt.

The Mormons sure have a fucked up view of reality, don't they. Why would anyone fight to tear down a church out of pure hate? They wouldn't. Maybe a very select few here and there would, but they are the very small exception. I blog against the church for the simple reason that it isn't true and deceives millions of people. I have no hate at all. In fact, I love my LDS family, friends, and neighbors. They are good people (and I'm not just saying that, Greg). They really are. They are just deceived by a cult and I am fighting to set them free.

Everything that the LDS church accuses us of being (liars, deceivers, etc.) is what they actually are themselves. I'm not talking about the Mormon people, but the church organization and it's leaders. They have to lie to their members to keep them around. That's pathetic. The LDS corporation is nothing but a pack of money hungry business men who are up to their eyebrows in their own lies.

I just wonder how much longer they can sustain the lie before it all comes crashing down around them...

SPAMLDS

SPAMLDS

If I had just one sentence to describe what I think about it, I would say:

"It reeks of arrogance."

Of course, I'm going to use more than one sentence to describe what I think about it.

First of all, SPAM? Society to Prevent Anti-Mormonism?

In otherwords, your goal is to shut up everyone who disagrees with you. Doesn't that go against our Constitutional right to freedom of speech?

As far as I can tell, Greg West runs this group. At least he is a major contributor. I found this site when he left a comment on one of my posts. I only looked over the site a little. Honestly! But what I did see was extremely bigoted. This man thinks he is the ultimate authority on how ex-Mormons think and feel. He is so wrong that it is offensive. In my last post I briefly mentioned how he is like a Nazi who is an expert on those "angry Jews".

Every post of his that I read is condescending and full of arrogance and self-righteousness. In one post, he takes note that of all the "hate mail" he receives, the most angry is from those loathsome ex-Mormons.

But what does he expect? On his site, he does nothing but trash them. When they respond and tell him to go to hell, he puts up a post saying, "See? I told you they were angry." Guess what, Greg? If you poke a beehive too many times, the bees are going to get mad. You see, you provoke ex-Mormons and then try to make an example of them when they respond to your pokes. You stir the pot and then hold up your hands like you are totally innocent.

I read one article he posted to children and wives of an apostate man. Again, he claims to be the ultimate authority on why people leave the church stating that he has seen it again and again. And guess what that big reason is? They go to college and learn how to think!!!

Let me ask you this, Greg. If Jesus were reading your website, would he approve of it? Did Jesus teach that you are supposed to trash the living hell out of everyone who walks away from him? No!!! In fact, he taught the parable of the 100 sheep. The shepherd who took care of 100 sheep lost one. Did he throw up his hands and say, "Oh well, that was a little evil and angry sheep!"? No, he left the 99 to go search for the one missing.

Does your website reflect the attitude of searching out the lost? No. Your website has the appearance of humbly inviting people back, but demeaning them the whole time they are away. It's like you have the attitude of trashing the living hell out of those who leave and then again, try to make an example of us when we get offended by you and refuse to return.

You create the tension between us and then blame US for being stubborn, prideful, angry, and evil.

I have a neighbor who lives up the street. I don't know him real well, but I do know that he doesn't get along with his next door neighbor. In fact, his neighbor is a real asshole. I won't get into details, but I will say that the man majorly deserves to get his ass kicked.

Now one day, my aquaintance up the street had a birthday party in his backyard and invited me. While we were eating and talking with the other guests, this asshole of a neighbor shows up bringing a case of soda. When my friend snapped at him to get lost, the guy next door tried to act like nothing was wrong.

You see, when no one is looking, he's a fucking prick. When everyone is looking, he's a nice guy. So, when everyone was looking, he came over and offered a gift. Well, his whole plan was to make my friend get agitated in front of everyone to make him look like the jerk. So his plan was to make a peace offering where everyone could see, in an effort, because of past incidences, to make my friend throw a fit in front of everyone.

Well, Greg, you're like that asshole neighbor. You preach all is well and good, but on the inside, you are stirring the pot and getting everybody pissed off. Then you play the innocent card and ask, "What did I do? I offered peace." Yes, you did, but it was right after you got done telling the whole world how evil and horrible we are. You stir the pot and then use our reaction to make your point. That's sick and wrong.

Jesus most certainly would not approve.

It really saddens me that, once again, I, the unbeliever, have to lecture the holier-than-thous about the true message and spirit of Jesus. You are like the person with a beam in your own eye. You are so busy trying to make everyone else perfect that you don't realize that you have your own eyes to worry about. Or do you even understand that parable?

This parable talks about the hypocrites who are trying to make everyone else pay the price for offenses they are guilty of themselves. It's like the adulterer trying to catch his wife cheating on him. The moral of the story is to mind your own damn business and take care of your own problems before you try to solve everyone elses.

So, Greg, in all of your holy glory, why don't you lay off the ex-Mormons. You're so caught up in judgements that you don't even realize that you've become a Pharisee! You know who Jesus despised the most? Hypocrites!

So on your website, you trash ex-Mormons up one side and down the other. Then you respond to my post about "Happy Mormons" and tell all your little cohorts to send me a message telling me how happy they are. But the part that made me laugh was that you actually had to remind them to "be nice". http://spamlds.ning.com/forum/topics/tell-an-exmo-today-that-youre

So you can trash us all day, and then make yourself look like the good guy by reminding everyone to "play nice". That's a hypocrite! Because if you really wanted to play nice, then you wouldn't get on your computer and tell the whole world how evil and angry ex-Mormons are.

SPAMLDS describes itself as "The most despised TBM site on the Internet!"

Now why would that be unless it was full of condescending and arrogant bullshit?

"Truth is not a tactic..."

I've said this before, but I'll say it again, just for you, Greg:

Truth is truth. It does not need to be defended or justified. That being the case, why does the LDS church have people repeat thousands of times, "I know it's true". If it was true, then it wouldn't have to be repeated. It wouldn't have to be force fed. Do I have to repeat "I know the sky is blue" to myself everyday for fear that I might slip into the apostate thinking that the sky is orange? No! Truth is truth and does not need to be rehearsed and reinforced.

But the LDS gospel needs to be rehearsed! If you don't constantly brainwash yourself with "I know, I know, I know" then it leaves. What does (or should) that tell you?

Why don't you read my post entitled "A Balloon With A Hole In It". At the end, I described how a Mormon testimony is like a balloon with a hole in it. If you keep blowing into the balloon, it will stay inflated. But if you stop blowing, it will deflate. A testimony of something that is supposed to be the ultimate truth in the universe should not need constant input in order to stay true. It should stay true on it's own. But since the LDS gospel is so easily deflated, it can't possibly be the truth.

So, Greg, I am sure that you will just use this post for more of your "ex-Mormons are evil propaganda". You'll probably put it up as yet another example of how angry we are. But deep down inside, you'll know that it was you who stirred the pot and pissed off the bees.

You're absolutely right; truth is not a tactic. That's why the LDS church can't possibly be true. They whitewash their history and outright lie about many things. The LDS church doesn't want the world to know the truth. You're just another agent of the LDS church, spreading the lies and stereotypes about ex-Mormons. If the church had any chance of being true, it would not encourage the spread of hate and lies. It would encourage brotherhood between believers and non-believers. But you are a condescending agent of hate and bigotry.

And then you actually wonder why we get pissed off and send you hate-mail!

Re: The Tactics of Anti-Mormons

A fellow by the name of Greg West who runs SPAMLDS, has recently left a comment on a post of mine and from there, I found his website. Greg responded to my recent post about whether or not Mormons are happy. In his comment, he left a URL to an article he recently wrote asking if ex-Mormons are happy. This article paints a dark and untrue picture of ex-Mormons. He practically makes us out to be evil, mindless zombies who are so enraged at the church and the world that we are completely out of control.

Further browsing on his website revealed another offensive article. The Tactics of Anti-Mormons. I have also noticed that his website only allows members of his little group to leave comments. Here it is in it's entirety:

Anti-Mormons have a small bag of tricks they use repeatedly to derail discussions about Mormon beliefs. Here are the main ones. If you encounter anti-Mormons, see how many of their arguments fit into one of the following.

1..Use of non-authoritative sources and out-of-context quotations
2. Attack the story of the Book of Mormon's origin, not its contents
3. Distort Mormon doctrines by comparing them to the unscriptural teachings of Christian creeds
4. When all else fails, lie!
5. Use slander, personal attacks, and character assassination
6. Accuse your opponent of doing the very thing you are doing

And since comments are disabled there, I am forced to reply here.

First I will discuss each of his points and then I will make my own list of pro-Mormon tactics.

1. We use non-authoritative sources? 99% of anti-Mormon material comes directly from LDS church approved sources. It comes from court records and news papers. It comes from journals and eye-witness accounts. Out of context quotations? First of all, why would I use a quotation out of context? If I supply the reference, then the reader can see the full context and know that I am full of shit. That only discredits myself. In fact, whenever I use a quote, I always supply a link to the entire source. That way my reader can see the context from which the quote was derived.

2. They attack the origin of the Book of Mormon and not it's content. Okay, Greg, this one is a no brainer but since you brought it up, I must reply. If it can be shown that the origin of something is false, then that something itself, must be false, no matter what it says. To attack the content of the Book of Mormon is like trying to kill a tree by cutting off the branches. No, if you want the problem to go away, you kill the root; you disprove the origin. That automatically disproves the content by default.

3. Distort Mormon doctrines by comparing them to the unscriptural teachings of Christian creeds. I have no idea what you're even talking about, Greg. First of all, Mormonism itself has many teachings that are unscriptural. Show me anywhere in any of the scriptures, where it says anything about temple work and endowments. Secondly, comparing apples to oranges is a waste of time. I've never tried to disprove Mormonism by comparing it to other Christian faiths.

4. When all else fails, lie! Yes, since I am an ex-Mormon that is all I can do. I've got nothing better to do than just sit here and make up all the lies I can think of. Why? Just because I'm angry at the world. At least that is they way our friend, Greg, thinks it is. Why lie when there is so much good truth to talk about? I don't need to lie. I don't need to make things up. There is so much damning stuff in church history that I don't need to lie. I just talk about the REAL Mormon history and they call me a liar.

5. Use slander, personal attacks, and character assassination. Can you give an example? Oh, you mean like calling Joseph Smith an adulterer, child molester, con-artist, and fraud. Those aren't character assinations... that's actually what he was. Besides, Greg, if I sit here, right now and call you a bigoted lying asshole, does that do anything to further my cause? No, it doesn't. Reading real church history and then calling the characters by their appropriate titles is not slander... it's the truth.

6. Accuse your opponent of doing the very thing you are doing. It's funny because the LDS church and it's defenders are either lying or just ignorant. Question for you... have you ever actually read our arguments or do you just pass them off as lies before you even study what they have to say?

Greg has an extremely perverted view of what ex-Mormons are and what we are trying to do. He has bought into the churches propaganda that all those who leave the church are bitter and angry. We are so consumed with anger that we will do ANYTHING to bring down the truth. And even though we all feel horribly guilty inside, we just can't control the anger and it consumes us. We cry ourselves to sleep each night, in pure agony for our sins, and then the next morning we wake up and sin more to try and escape the guilt.

Greg, your view of ex-Mormons is so wrong that I can't even put it into words. You are nothing but another sheep of LDS, Inc., just regurgitating what the "bretheren" have said. You are just another victim of their lies. You are like a Nazi who is a supposed expert on the "angry Jews".

When I read your first comment to me, Greg, I thought that we would be able to have a nice discussion. But from reading the crap that you post on your blog, I can see that you are nothing but a bigot and that debating with you will accomplish nothing. You are the expert on ex-Mormons, even though you have never been one and have never been in our shoes. You are completely clueless. All you are good for is to spew the entirely false propaganda of the church. You are nothing but a sheep. You are just a self-righteous bigot. There, hows that for your #5?

Pro-Mormon Tactics:

1. Just tell the stuff that sounds good. If anything is negative, make sure you hide it. This is known as the "milk before meat" principle; just never share the meat.

2. Encourage your investigators to ONLY hear your side. Discourage them from reading or asking any outside sources. Make sure that they only hear your biased version of things.

3. Eliminate the competition by labeling them as evil and angry. Anything they say that disagrees with you is obviously a lie.

4. Share your truth all you want, but attack others who do it. Our truth must be spread. Anyone who opposes us must be silenced!

5. Sensor! If you have a pro-Mormon website, only allow comments to be posted that agree with you.

6. If argument and rationalization fails, play the persecution card. I'm just harassing you BECAUSE you are Mormon.

7. If all else fails, play the testimony card. When there is no evidence to back up your claim and the opponent has you backed into a corner, you can rely on the fail-proof testimony. Ignore all evidence and rational thought... just keep testifying!

8. Don't even pretend that you believe ex-Mormons are good people. Just stereotype them all and label them as the evil and angry SOB's that they are!

9. Discourage free thought. Everything I tell you must be taken on complete blind faith.

P.S. I have included a link to SPAMLDS in my side bar just to show that I have not stated anything from his website out of context. Now go visit his website and see if he doesn't use every single tactic that I have listed here.

Greg, in your article that you referred me to, you state how you often receive "hate-mail" from angry ex-Mormons. Let me fill you in with a little clue... ex-Mormons respond to you angrily because you post some very offensive things on your blog. Stop stereotyping. Stop spewing the churches hate propaganda. Instead, try to form a bridge between Mormons and ex-Mormons. You might be surprised at how many of us will respond positively. I mean, you represent the lords only true church, right? Maybe you should set the proper example of what being Christ-like really means. Jesus sat and ate with sinners; the Pharisees condemned the sinners to hell...

Which one are you?

Are Mormons Really Happy?

I've been over at exmormon.org a lot lately. They have a lot of good stuff there. Becuase I am not going to have much time to devote to writing articles, I am going to be posting links to other websites for a while. This one is a good one.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon106.htm

The author (an ex-Mormon) talks about his visit to an LDS worship service and how dull and drab it was. He also notices how no one in the congregation seems to be happy even in the slightest.

Are Mormons really happy? They think they are. They are told that only by following the Mormon gospel can one be truly happy. Anyone else who appears to be happy only has the illusion of happiness.

So, a challenge to any Mormons who happen by...

Look around the next time you go to sacrament meeting. Are your fellow Mormons happy? Be honest now!

Happy New Year! 2010

I hope everyone had a wonderful holiday season, even though the celebration is for the birth of a mythological character. I looked a little bit for a sexy graphic but didn't find a good one so I'll just put up a picture of a sexy girl in a see-thru outfit and call it good!

School is starting again soon and I won't be posting as much; however, I will still be here so please feel free to leave comments or send me email.

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Happy New Year to all the loyal supporters of Mormon411. You know who you are!