Sunday, February 24, 2008

Just Think About It...

If you just stop and take the time to think about it, you don't need proof that the church is not true. You don't need the Book of Abraham fiasco. You don't need the thousands of changes to the Book of Mormon. You don't need to know that the temple ceremony was plagerized from the masons and that the concept of the "Celestial Kingdom" was plagerized by Joseph Smith from an earlier auther. It's all right there in front of you.

You just need to think about it...

If Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet of god, how come he is voted into his position?

If the priesthood is real, how come people with genetic diseases can't be cured?

If faith can move mountains, how come the most faithful, righteous priesthood holder can't even move a pebble?

If the temple is the house of god, why is it built by men?

Yet again, if the temple is the house of god, why is money exchanged inside?

If the tithing promise is real, how come you are never showered with blessings until you don't have room to receive?

If the Word of Wisdom keeps you healthy, why are there so many FAT Mormons?

Why does the church require you to pay tithing when both the Bible and the Book of Mormon say that the gospel is free?

Why do leaders of the church condemn science and then turn around and use it to spread their message?

Like I said, it's all right there for anybody to see. All you have to do is think about it.

Just another evil apostate...


Anonymous said...

Sounds like you don't get it. Why are you so angry?

Mormon411 said...

A typical Mormon reply... name calling without any type of rebuttal.

Where in my post did I come off, even a little bit, as being angry? I am just raising some good questions that you need to think about. Just because your leaders have taught you that all who leave the church are angry, doesn't mean it's true. The very fact that you come in here and immediately start telling me how angry I am is proof that you are brainwashed by a mind-numbing cult.

Show me which statement I made that shows any kind or degree of anger... I bet you can't. Instead, I bet you'll just disappear and never leave any more comments. You've got words, but nothing to back them up!

How about instead of telling me how angry I am, why don't you dispute me? I think I have raised some perfectly legitimate questions and if you can't even answer them, then that speaks volumes.

If the church is true, then you should have the spirit on your side and it should be easy to confound me. If you can do it, I welcome it!

Anonymous said...

I'm back.

You sound angry in your posting because you're raising questions "proving" to yourself that the church is not true because it and its leadership have not lived up to your standards. I believe the burden of proof is yours. You show me where has the church ever taught that its members or by the power of Priesthood or faith will cure genetic diseases. The church doesn't teach that it will do that or most of the things you talk about in your posting.

You talk about the prophet not being able to move a pebble. Moving dirt and rocks was never the point. Its about faith. Its not about moving literal mountains its about having life changing experiences. It's about finding strength and having hope in a world that is constantly trying to take people away from God and their spirituality.

I really don't mean to offend, but I asked if you are angry because I felt that your arguments were irrational. My experience is that rational people become irrational when they are angry about something. Maybe I am operating under a false assumption (just like you are in believing a prophet should be able to move a mountain, and that he actually would move one if he could) that you are rational person. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you are a rational person, I just think you are upset about something and I'm curious to know what that is. We could spend all day long talking about why the prophet will never move a mountain or a pebble when those aren't the real problems you have with the church.

Mormon411 said...

Well, you see, that's just the thing. The church has never actually said that they can cure genetic diseases. But IF it is gods true church and IF they have the true power of god, and IF Jesus healed leppers and blind and lame, then what else is to be assumed then that they indirectly claim to have that ability.

But then again, none of the current apostles have ever said they have seen god or Jesus. So, do they have to say it for it to be assumed by millions of people?

The same with moving mountains or pebbles. I know that faith is the point, but again, Jesus walked on water so how come the most elite Mormons can't do it? Peter did, according to the Bible. And Mormons believe that Peter was one of the top guys in Jesus' original church: a general authority so to speak. So again, indirectly, Mormon leaders should be able to walk on water as well. But we all know they can't. So what does that mean?

BTW, I am 1001% sure that if the bretheren could move mountains, you'd better believe they would! That would bring in thousands of new members and millions (if not billions) more in tithing dollars.

Don't worry, I'm not offended. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. At least you haven't started off by telling me how hateful I am, like others have done in the past.

I know that some of my questions are a bit far fetched, but the purpose of them is just to stimulate people and get them thinking. Maybe it will help remind them of some question or doubt that they have buried some time in the past.

Yes, I am upset about something. I'm upset that I lived my entire life as a Mormon and never once, EVER heard that the papyrus scrolls had been found and that they basically prove that Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham. This is real Mormon history and it is unfortunate that I have to learn these things from an anti-Mormon website. Why does the lords only true church have to lie to me and hide the truth from me?

No, moving pebbles or mountains is not my issue, but it is an issue... The scriptures say that faith can move mountains. Perhaps that is figurative but still. That's figurative in a big way! Does that mean if I believe hard enough that a million dollars will suddenly appear in my bank account? I know that's not the message either, but what is the message then? Does anybody actually know? Why have all these sayings and quotes if they don't really apply to anything, except for just sounding good?

May I assume that you have read some of my other posts as well? Assuming you have, what I don't understand is how you can read things, such as my "Changing Mormon Stories" and not be somewhat shocked or upset by them. I can show you proof that Joseph Smith once taught that god is a spirit person. Why did he later change his mind? My main question is: how can you know about all these issues and simply brush them aside as if they are of no consequence?

Mormon411 said...

Additionally, I know some of my questions are a bit far fetched, but what about the one's that aren't?

If Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet of god, how come he is voted into his position?

If the tithing promise is real, how come you are never showered with blessings until you don't have room to receive?

If the Word of Wisdom keeps you healthy, why are there so many FAT Mormons?

Why does the church require you to pay tithing when both the Bible and the Book of Mormon say that the gospel is free?

Why do leaders of the church condemn science and then turn around and use it to spread their message?

You may not think so, but I think these are perfectly legitimate questions. They are questions every LDS member should be asking. The trouble is, the correct answer to every question sheds doubt on the church and its integrity. And since the church is true by default, then the correct answer is false, which means the question should never have been asked, which is exactly why they don't ask it!

But if you ask the honest question and accept the honest answer, then you might have to square with the possibility that the church might not be true. That is what I did and eventually learned to see the facts for what they are... facts.

Mormon411 said...

And the more I get thinking about it, the more I realize that none of my questions are far fetched. If someone has a cold and the power of the priesthood healed them, (we have all heard a story about how the priesthood made someone better) then what is wrong with expecting the priesthood to be able to heal a genetic disease? If this is the true power of god, then anything should be possible, right? So if you sit there and tell me that the priesthood CAN'T cure a genetic diease then something is seriously wrong. This whole genetic issue thing came to me when I heard a talk by our buddy Monson and he talked about a family where everyone had some genetic disease. Muscular dystrophy or something like that. He talked about how faithful they were and how eventually they started dying. And I kept asking myself, if this man is an actual witness of Christ, Himself, then why does he not preform a true miracle and heal this entire family? Jesus would have. If Monson had the power to heal, then he would have displayed it right there. It's ironic that they all claim to have all this special power of god and yet not one of them can do anything that is even a little bit amazing. Doesn't that concern you just a little?

Anonymous said...

ok so I think the problem here is you are assuming a lot of things that church doesn't pretend to be. You are basing quite of few of your arguments on bad assumptions. Like being able to cure genetic diseases. The Priesthood has cured people of such diseases but that doens't mean that these miracles will happen on a whim or whenever one person regardless of their position in the church wants it. God nor the LDS church have ever promised to heal everyone that wants to be healed of any ailment. It doesn't work that way and to base an argument on a false assumption refutes the argument before it even begins.

LDS leaders not being able to walk on water means nothing. Do they need to walk on water? No, they don't so they won't. God and His servants don't perform miracles for entertainment or to show the world who they are. It has never been that way and never will.

So, do you believe in God at all? Discussing LDS theology is pretty silly if you don't believe in God.

No the General Authorities of the church won't move mountains even if they could. It's not about wowing the world into joining the church. Conversion takes place when the holy spirit touches someones heart. Thats the only way a true conversion will happen.

Leaders of the church do amazing things everyday. The bless people in more ways then healing them from ailments. This life isn't about being 100% healthy all the time. This life is one short stop in a long forever we've got ahead of us. Do you really think that Jesus healed everyone he ever met? Maybe it sounds that way in the New Testament but does that stand to reason? I don't think it does. And to compare Jesus and his ministry to a prophet isn't exactly an apple s to apples comparison. How many miracles and healings did the apostles in the new testament perform. Quite a few I believe but not like Jesus did, more like how prophets today live.

So when was the last time you went to church?

Mormon411 said...

Do I believe in god? No, at least not the Christian god. I have set myself free from all that superstitious crap.

The thing about the priesthood healing you is, how do you know it was really the priesthood? Lots of people get sick and then get better without ever receiving a blessing, so how can you know 100% that the priesthood healed you? You don't.

Furthermore, a genetic disease is non-curable by medical standards. You mentioned that such a disease has been cured by the priesthood. Can you give me an example? Believe me, if that happened it would be all over the news and everyone would hear about it.

I don't believe I am assuming anything. Being the one and only true church with the one and only true priesthood is a bold claim. But when it comes to anything beyond words, there is nothing.

According to the Bible, when Jesus healed people, he did not put conditions on whether or not they would be healed. Everyone that Jesus attempted to heal, he actually did heal. But nowadays, you never know if a blessing of healing is going to "work".

If you never know if a blessing is going to work or not, why even bother getting one? In your explanation, all I see is you making excuses for god. You're just explaining why it works sometimes and why it doesn't sometimes. Well the simple answer to that is just pure random chance. If you die, you were going to die anyway. If you get better, you were going to get better anyway. A blessing or prayer makes absolutely no difference either way.

And if being able to walk on water is totally irrevalent as you seem to claim, then why did your god feel the need to include it in the Bible? I think it is you who is missing the entire point. Jesus preformed miracles to wow and woo everybody so that they would follow and believe him. So how come that same thing does not happen now? Where's the public miracles? If it's not all about miracles to make people believe, then why do they always publish stories in the Ensign? Christ's church is supposed to be a church of miracles so my question is, where are they? Why do they always tell stories about supposed miracles, but never actually show any???

I'm not talking about a random coincidence where some kid lost his favorite toy and then finds it after praying... I'm talking about raising a person from the dead. Or healing an incurable disease. If it truly was the true church, those things would happen on a daily basis and I think you know that. You're just trying to make excuses as to why the priesthood only randomly works. It wasn't random in the Bible. Why is it random now?

I stopped going to church right around Christmas of 2004 and have not been back since, except to attend an occassional baby blessing or something like that.

Do I miss it? Hell no!

Mormon411 said...

The next time you go to church, just pay attention to all the brainwashing that goes on all around you. "I know the church is true"... "I want to serve a mission"... Notice how much they talk about unconditional obedience. You are required to give your will completely to the church. Do what you are told without question. Also, notice how much they talk about paying tithing and recruiting new members. Church is nothing but a huge brainwashing session! The church that can't even produce any real miracles demands your every resource and last ounce of obedience! You are truly in a cult my friend and you'll see it as soon as you open your eyes.

Mormon411 said...

It looks like this anon poster has either decided to stop casting his pearls before swine, or just can't answer the tough questions.

Really, if both the Bible and the Book of Mormon say the gospel is totally free, why does the LDS church oppress it's members into paying tithing, even making it a requirement to get into heaven?

The fact is, you don't know, do you? But the church is still true, right? No matter how many good questions are asked and no matter how much evidence there is, the church still has to be true. I know, because I was there and once thought that way.

Anonymous said...

I'm still here. but I gotta go home teach right now so I don't have time to respond to all this. But yes, it is still true. Not because anyone tells me so but because I know that it is.

Anonymous said...

The LDS church does not oppress its members by asking them to pay tithes. Nor does it say that you cannot get into heaven without it. That is not true. Are certain privileges withheld from member who don't pay a tithe? yes. but it is an individual decision. the monies are then taken to help build up the church. this is a practice that is not unique to the LDS church and it is perfectly reasonable for the members to support the church.

Mormon411 said...

Hey welcome back. How was the home teaching? That's one thing that I surely don't miss!!! If you're planning on sticking around for a while, go ahead and pick out a screen name so I don't have to keep calling you anon!

With all due respect, I disagree with you and strongly feel that the church oppresses people out of tithing money. I do agree that any church should be supported, at least in part, by the members. That's not my problem. My problem is that in order to get to heaven, you have to be temple worthy. In order to be temple worthy, one of the requirements is a full tithe. In addition, they threaten you with burning in a huge fire at the second coming if you do not pay. In most religions, paying tithes or offerings is optional. In Mormonism, it is absolutely required. That's the difference and that's my problem. Additionally, the church rakes in millions upon millions of dollars. They are swimming in money, so when does "the Lord" feel that he has enough money? The church owns businesses, corporations, ranches, hotel resorts, etc. The income from that in addition to tithing must be phenomonal! When does "god" have enough money?

One additional issue, that I mentioned in this post is the fact that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon say the gospel is free. I would have no problem with tithing if it was OPTIONAL, but unfortunately it is not.