Monday, February 20, 2012

The Nature of Evidence

I've been having a good discussion with a former atheist now believer. This person, who calls herself WingAbouts, has a degree in biology (or so she claims) and is a former believer in evolution, and now claims that the Theory of Evolution has been disproven, by scientists, in the 1950's. I have asked for references and, so far, haven't been given any. I have also asked her to provide some arguments for why the Bible is reliable and to provide references for that as well. She has provided some very thorough answers on her blog which I would encourage everyone to go read. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to look up the references she provided, but I do intend to.

I want to talk about the nature of evidence and proof. In debates such as believer vs. non-believer, nothing can be proven. The very object of our debate is faith-based, admittedly so, even by believers. Neither side can prove their case.

According to, evidence is defined as: 1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof. 2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign

Proof: 1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth. 2. anything serving as such evidence. 3. the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof. 4. the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.

Notice the definition of proof says "evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true". This means that evidence can be found to support both sides of an argument but evidence does not prove it until it is sufficient. We have all seen a mystery murder case where it strongly appears that a certain person is guilty, but in the end it is always the person you least expect. Proof is provided, and in the light of the truth, it is usually clear how the former suspect appeared to be guilty. We must be very careful about drawing conclusions from evidence until there is a sufficient amount to "rest the case".

Further, religion proudly claims it finds truth using faith, not evidence, so in my mind, this very greatly negates any evidence they try to produce. The problem with finding evidence in favor of religion is that the person seeking it is almost always biased. He sets out with the pre-determined conclusion that his religion is correct. This is unfortunate because, along the way, he will probably stumble across evidence which does not support his views. This evidence will be tossed aside and only that which supports his pre-determined conclusion will be presented to argue his position.

Do atheists do this too? I'm sure some do, and this is not the way to find truth. I can only speak for myself when I say that I am willing to look at and analyze any evidence. Believers might bring me an argument that I can't refute, and a few have.

However, I can't base such a huge conclusion on one piece of good evidence when I have been presented with hundreds of good arguments against it. It's like a basketball game: the winner is determined by who has the most points when the time runs out. It doesn't matter how those points were scored: free throw, lay up, slam dunk, 3 pointer, net or rim. What matters is who has the most points at the end.

A religious "slam dunk" is still only worth 2 points and that doesn't mean they win. An atheist "free throw" shot might only be worth 1 point each. But if there are three of them, a score of 3 to 2 means that atheists win. In the end, not one individual score won the game, but their combined effort if they were sufficient.

(There would be some cases where a single piece of evidence would outrule all the others, such as god actually making a public appearance, or video of the crime taking place)

That being said, after taking an objective look at the scores put up by the religious and non-religious, I have to determine, based upon the evidence and not my own bias, that non-religious wins. Of course, having a little common sense, reason, and free thinking helps too. This is the precise path that I followed when becoming an atheist and it was a process that took nearly two years.

Let's tally up the score and see who wins. Anyone is free to add points to either arguments:


The Bible contradicts itself - 1 point
Stories in the Bible are based on magic - 1 point
The Bible condones slavery - 1 point
No scientific evidence supporting the great flood - 1 point
Snakes don't talk - 1 point
Fruit doesn't make you damned - 1 point
Men don't come from mud - 1 point
Women don't come from ribs - 1 point
Virgins can't be pregnant - 1 point
It is impossible to walk on water - 1 point
Dead people don't come back to life - 1 point
According to the Bible, god kills lots of people - 1 point
Research shows that prayer actually has no effect - 1 point
Council of Nicaea - 1 point
A dozen deities with the same attributes as Jesus - 1 point
Christian beliefs borrowed from Paganism - 1 point
Christians can't even agree with each other - 1 point
Much evidence for evolution: 10 points

Total: 27


The Bible says so - 1 point
The Bible is perfect - 1 point
I feel it - 1 point
I believe it - 1 point
I prayed and got what I prayed for - 1 point
I let you comment on my blog - 1 point
My preacher said you would say that - 1 point
My faith over rides any evidence - 1,000,000 points

Total: 1,000,007

1,000,007 to 27. Religion wins by a blowout!

So you can see that no matter how many arguments there are for the non-truth of religion, you just can't compete with that darn "faith overrides evidence" argument. Damn it!


Exhalted Outcast said...


What about "I prayed to a tree and found $100"?

1,000,000,000 pts



WingAbouts said...

You've made an interesting case here. And I am ever so happy that you are willing to look at the references I've given you. I'm also smiling at your use of the dictionary to get this discussion going. I often use dictionary definitions when I'm teaching the Bible to folks and most have said they've never thought about that before - that somehow the Bible is faith and why bring up facts! Well, I'm a different sort of Christian I guess. I turn to facts to support the faith I hold. By the way, I haven't refused to answer any of your questions, nor have I given up trying. I've just had a couple people that seemed to have more pressing needs.

However, your point system has been skewed by your worldview insisting that anything you can't explain must be false... there are lots of things that are unexplained, as of yet! Do you really think that people have discovered EVERY truth and there is nothing yet to learn?

Allow me to get off topic here for a moment - have you ever considered the notion of chaos? Well I have! And as a Christian I think that everything, absolutely everything, has been DESIGNED by God. Therefore, when I see something that is by nature chaotic, I find myself thinking that there is something we humans have not fully investigated. And when we do, we will find that it has a pattern and reason that we just currently don't recognize. In other words, it is our perspective that needs changing. Now I know you probably think this is silliness, but my point here is to say that not understanding something should be a reason for further investigation rather than dismissal.

As for your question, could a person walk on water? OF COURSE! And you should stop using "this" as one of your arguments to deny the Bible as Truth. Too many folks, myself included have done this very same thing when visiting the Great Salt Lake. However, being a Christian, I do not think that "this" is how Jesus was able to walk on water. His ability came from His being GOD INCARNATE and Jesus temporarily gave that ability to his disciple Peter. How? Don't know. But don't go around saying that this particular miracle is not possible. Millions of people have "walked on water" while visiting Utah!

Another one to take off your list of “proofs” the Bible is false is the idea that the dead do not come back to life. Where do you live? Have you never heard of folks being pronounced dead and then they started breathing again? I'm not saying the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is in any way the same sort of thing. However, you need to stop making such silly statements like dead people don't come back to life. They do indeed!

And oh yes, I'm still sticking to my guns on Evolution being proved false when DNA was discovered. How can I possibly say that? Logic! EVERY known living organism has 4 little amino acids that make up their DNA. There are NO KNOWN EXCEPTIONS! If life forms mutate, then we should have thousands of different DNA forms and some organisms that are so different that we would have to classify them as not even having “DNA”. However, EVERY life form has the same, identical, fingerprint of the Lord God Creator of EVERYTHING = 4 amino acids we call DNA. Case closed. Evolution is a lie.

Thanks again for the spirited debate. You are keeping me on my toes, to say the least, and for that I am truly grateful!

Mormon411 said...

Again, I don't mean to insult you, but are you sure you have an acutal degree in biology? Because everything you say is so wrong. I've only taken general ed classes and I obviously understand it far better than you do.

First of all, there are 21 amino acids. There are four letters in the "DNA alphabet" and each amino acid is represented by a 3-letter word. Your argument that there are only 4 was probably referring to the four letters of the DNA alphabet.

Your argument is like trying to say that since there are only 26 letters in the Roman alphabet, that we can only make 26 or so words. But we can write countless words, sentences, paragraphs, and books all based on 26 little letters.

Again, I don't know where you are getting this information from, but the discovery of DNA did not disprove evolution; it supported it. Sexual reproduction is what makes evolution possible. If it were not, your kids would all look exactly like you and there would be no different races of people.

Every expert in science, especially those whose expertise is in biology all agree that DNA makes the case for evolution stronger.

We don't just have the fossil record evidence. All branches of science confirm it. You're just engaging in wishful thinking.

If we did not have birds in our ancestory, then why do HUMAN BEINGS have inactive DNA for egg yolk? And why does a HUMAN FETUS have a yolk sac for a short period of time?

You need to stop believing in pseudo science, because none of your claims are correct.

And it is true that salt water is more dense than fresh water and so a person does not sink as deeply into the Great Salt Lake. So are you telling me that only the soles of your feet got wet?

And when I say dead, I mean dead for three days. Someone who just died on an operating table does not count because obviously they weren't completely dead. There has never been a documented case where an actual dead and stiff person has ever come back to life. It doesn't happen.

Besides, I would be impressed at that if it only happened to believers. But since it happens to everyone of all faiths, then it means nothing.

WingAbouts said...

Let me quote myself for you: "EVERY known living organism has 4 little amino acids that make up their DNA." What that means is that DNA is made up of 4 amino acids, NOT that there are only 4 amino acids!

And NO ONE refutes micro-evolution exists. NO ONE, not even me! However, your leap to say that this then proves macro-evolution is a JOKE!

And that fossil record you just cited -- really, do you want to go there??? There is NO PROOF for evolution. I state that with 100% assurance.

And I further KNOW that EVERY scientist in the world agrees with that statement. If there were PROOF, we wouldn't be talking about the THEORY of Evolution but the LAW of Evolution.

Again, case closed. There are ONLY 4 amino acids in DNA and that proves a single Creator, not random chance!

WingAbouts said...

Question: If, as you stated, "Sexual reproduction is what makes evolution possible" is true, then how did sexual beings evolve from asexual beings and how have asexual beings evolved at all? You seem to be confused about your religion's basic teachings :-o

Mormon411 said...

DNA is made up of four molecules. We can agree on that, but they are not amino acids. They might have an amino group attached (its been a while since my biology class and I don't exactly remember their structure BUT I know for a fact that they are not just amino acids).

Like I said, I've only had general classes on the subject so I'm not an expert. I don't know the mechanisms of how organisms went from asexual to sexual. I've wondered that myself and I will admit that my studies have not taken me that deep into it.

Keep in mind that evolution takes time. An alligator does not give birth to a duck. It takes millions of years and is very slow. Life has been on this planet for over 3 billion years and that is more time than the human mind can even comprehend. We weren't there to see it happen and so there might be questions that never get answered. But to an athiest, it's ok to say "I don't know". It's better than explaining it with magic.

No proof for evolution? Excuse me while I roll on the floor laughing!

What have you been reading? The evidence is overwhelming. Like I keep saying... ASK THE EXPERTS, NOT YOUR PASTOR. Where did the dinosaur bones come from? Did god bury them in the ground just to confuse everyone?

I suppose you're going to try and tell me that there have NEVER been any transitional forms found, right? Wrong! Again, pick up an actual text book.

You know for 100% certainty that every single scientist in the world believes that there is no evidence for evolution... Were are the cameras? Is this a joke? Please tell me this is a joke. I can show you lots and lots of scientists that believe it. Besides, how do you know what every single scientist in the world believes? Did you personally ask every single one of them?

And next you try to argue that because it's called a theory and not a law, then it can't be true. Really? That's your big evidence? An apple with a different name would still be an apple.

Do you really expect me to explain to you the difference between a natural law and a theory?

Whoever issued you that degree needs to take it back and put it through the shredder.

I have asked you to provide me with the evidence from the 1950's that disproves evolution and you have failed miserably.

The only case that is closed is how ignorant you are and how absurd your arguments are. I'm done here... I can only take so much BS in one day and I've had enough to last a year!

Now you're going to claim that you won the debate because I refuse to take it further, right? Well, you just keep telling yourself that.

When you decide to join us in the land of reality, feel free to come back.

WingAbouts said...

You were right when you said that a lot of scientists believe evolution is true. They BELIEVE. And they hold their religious beliefs quite strongly. But if even one of them had any PROOF then this would not be a Theory but a scientific Law - and you know in your heart that is the truth.

My faith is not "blind faith" and I've given you many reasons to consider the truthfulness of the Bible. Over the next few weeks I hope to make more posts on my blog, I hope you'll come by and check them out from time to time.

Brad said...


You take the Bible to be "true", yet you haven't explained some of Mormon411 questions concerning it. Questions I have often asked and yet haven't received a satisfactory answer. In the old testiment, why does God allow slavery, genocide, polygamy, incest, and the killing of children who made fun of a bald man?

The new testiment is just copies of copies of copies, since we don't have the originals. How can claim truth to something that the original writings are nowhere to be found and the books don't agree with each other?

You also say that "God" created all things, why then did He create smallpox, which killed an estimated 500,000,000 people, mostly women and children, just in the 20th century? Population control? Luckily, scientist where able to eradicate this or maybe you think they went against Gods design. Then there is the Black Plague, which wiped out half of the European population. If anything God knows how to create very efficient killing machines. Thank goodness that scientist have come up with vaccinations that have prevented some of these massive killings to reoccur. If a human being designed an organism and used it to kill others, he could be tried and punished, but I guess God gets a free pass.

Brad said...


I also forgot to mention that your use of the words "Theory" and "Law" are incorrect. Please refer to this article

In scientific nomenclature, "Theories" and "Laws" do not evolve from one to the other. A scientific law will always be a law and a scientific theory will always be a theory. A scientific law refers to the rules by which nature will behave. A scientific theory is the explanation of how nature works.

So, the theory of evolution is a fact in the science community. It is the only explanation from an observable point of view of how humans have come to be.

Mormon411 said...

Thank you for sharing that article, Brad. It still strikes me as odd that someone who claims to be educated in any branch of science is so ignorant to the terms and facts.

Science is not a religion. Religion is a set of beliefs based upon faith. Science is a set of beliefs based upon evidence. If science was a religion, then there would be a god to worship. And I'm pretty sure that airplanes wouldn't fly, cars wouldn't drive, and computers wouldn't compute. If Thomas Edison had tried to invent a faith-based light bulb, the whole world would still be in the dark.

Mormon411 said...

Brad, that article you linked to is found on a fabulous website that talks about evolution in simple terms for average people and it is found here:

The reading is easy and the author paints a perfect picture of the evidence in it's many forms. Contrary to what certain commenters seem to think, DNA has not disproven evolution but has added to our understanding of it.

Anyone who reads this with a true desire to understand the theory will walk away knowing more about it than 95% of the population.

I will be placing a link to this website on my side bar. Thanks a ton, Brad. Hopefully this will help to clear up some confusion.

WingAbouts said...

Brad - just because God ALLOWS something to happen does not mean that He approves. If you approach history as recorded in the Old Testament with that mind set I think you will gain a new understanding of God. He gave constant warnings of sinful behavior, not approval.

As for the many diseases our world has had and is still suffering under, that is best explained by God's perfect creation becoming broken and torn about by the sinful behavior you mentioned previously.

The downward spiral you are noticing as REAL is the result of sin and decay. Your very own words Brad explain why evolution is false.

Mormon411 said...

"As for the many diseases our world has had... that is best explained by... the sinful behavior you mentioned previously."

So sin causes diseases to spread. Where is your evidence for this claim? There is none as it is your opinion. And you claim you base your beliefs on evidence. ROTFLMAO!

"The downward spiral you are noticing as REAL is the result of sin and decay."

See my reply above. My sides are aching from laughing!

Honest Hypocrite said...

The four alphabets here are called nucleobases. They're organic compounds but they are nowhere near being amino acids.

WingsAbout, since you're so passionate about proving creationism and happen to havea degree in Biology, why don't you prove it to us by doing research (recognised by the scientific community)?

WingAbouts said...

Isn't your trash can full yet? I'm so sorry that you've been hurt so badly by the false teaching of Mormonism, but this is no reason to toss out every notion of God.

Tomorrow is a new day. Go back and rethink what you said last week. There is evidence for Jesus as told about in the Bible. Don't let your pride keep you from exploring those references that were provided.

Mormon411 said...

That's not the reason I tossed out god. When I first left Mormonism, I still believed but I had to find my own truth. I studied and pondered for nearly two years before arriving at the conclusion that I am an atheist.

Did you even read this post? You might have a few good points here and there, but you are heavily outscored. You see the evidence for Jesus and reject the evidence for evolution because that's what you want to see. You are not searching for the truth. If you were, your arguements would be more educated and you would be able to back up your assumptions that "sin causes disease".

You continue to spout pseudo science and you take 1 or 2 point for Jesus and (in your opinion) that outscores all the hundreds of points in favor of evolution.

You have not answered a single point that I have brought up regarding the evidence for evolution. You side-step it every time. You keep claiming there is proof, but you never actually share it.

Every time I ask you about your degree, you conveniently ignore the question. I think that you just claim to have a degree in biology so that you can convince more people to your cause, and that is very dishonest and unethical.

So until you've actually educated yourself on this issue, please drop it.

Brad said...

Dear WingAbouts,

I just wanted to reply to the comment you directed towards me. To be honest, I'm rather confused. You said that the diseases that are causing people to suffer is caused by the sins that I mentioned. The thing is, I didn't mention any sins. The things I mentioned are SANCTIONED and/or COMMANDED by your god of the Bible.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say slavery is bad. God commands the total annihilation, genocide, of the Amalekites, including children and animals, because of something they did a hundred years prior, please read 1 Samuel 15. God says it's ok to have more than one wife, check out 2 Samuel 12. Lot, bring a righteous man and the only man to be saved from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah has sex with his daughters to carry on his line, read Genesis 19. And lastly, god sent two she bears to kill 42 children for making fun of Elisha for being bald, read 2 Kings 2:24.

Your reasoning for why there is diseases is rather disturbing. Let say you're a mother with two kids. One child decides to beat up another child at school. You as a parent decides to punish the other child by inflicting him with smallpox because of this. In any society this kind of action would be considered malevolent and the children removed and given to someone who would care for them and treat correctly when a child does something wrong. But, again, your god gets a free pass.

I will not worship any god that totally annihilates a group of people because someone sinned somewhere else. It's disgusting!!!

My partner in life says I'm wasting my time writing to you. She is probably right, but I encourage you to open your eyes and see how cruel the god of the Bible really is.

WingAbouts said...

Your point system is seriously faulty, if Jesus is TRUTH, then it doesn't matter how many points you assign to this or to that.

As for my biology degree, I don't see any reason for arguing that. Therefore, I have not done so.

I'm not trying to prove to you that I am a scientist, rather that Jesus is the Creator, Lord God who deserves both your honor and your praise. For HIM I will argue, but not for myself, for your sake.

WingAbouts said...

"Nowhere in the Bible does it say slavery is bad." The Bible does however, clearly teach that masters should not ever mistreat their slaves. In which case, most of the slavery this world has seen is in fact VERY BAD.

WingAbouts said...

"Lot, bring a righteous man and the only man to be saved from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah has sex with his daughters to carry on his line, read Genesis 19." Lot is considered righteous not because of his deeds, but because of his FAITH. The same is true for every redeemed sinner, myself included. Please read the New Testament.

WingAbouts said...

"I will not worship any god that totally annihilates a group of people because someone sinned somewhere else." Someone has sinned EVERYWHERE. We have ALL sinned, there is no such thing as innocent bystanders. Again, read the Bible's New Testament.

Brad said...

So let me get this straight, if I have the right faith I can commit incest? Without giving up my righteousness? Since we all sin, which sins cause massive killings of innocent children?

Steven Bently said...


Of the two statements below, which one is the most likely to be true?

A. 2000 years ago, nature strayed from it's course and virgin birth is suddenly possible.

B. Someone told a lie!

WingAbouts said...

Steven, your question only makes sense if you believe "nature" to be god. However since nature was ordained and created by the ONE TRUE GOD, yes, I'm going with your first option. (Although, I no doubt someone did tell a lie, as sinners did not stop sinning on the day their Savior was born.)

The Creator of nature not only has the right, but the power, to do something SUPERnatural whenever He so desires, even if we humans are completely CLUELESS as to just how He does it!

He is the infinite God, therefore our finite brains should be a little puzzled by how He does something now and then, don't you think?

WingAbouts said...

Brad, I’m going out on a limb here and guessing you aren’t a parent. Children are selfish and manipulative, both of which are SIN. I dearly love my children, but to say they are innocent is some serious denial. It could be that your definition of sin is skewed, but here’s a video for you that can help you understand that I’m not making it up when I say even the youngest of toddlers are “selfish and manipulative”.

And even the tiniest of babies want only what THEY want, a full tummy and a clean diaper. They must learn to consider others, to wait their turn, to share their toys, etc. Children are born selfish sinners. Sorry for the rude awakening, but we ALL SIN.

Mormon411 said...

You are following the exact pattern that I described:

1. Start with the pre-determined conclusion that your belief is true.

2. Automatically assume that everything else is wrong by default.

3. Since they are wrong, you are right! Go back to #1 and start again.

There is nothing scientific or objective about this at all and it is nothing be proud of. It means you are extremely close minded and don't really care about the truth.

This is why I don't take you seriously and why I won't be viewing the references you gave me. I am sure they are following the same pattern you are anyway.

"It is called FAITH because it is not KNOWLEDGE." ~ Christopher Hitchens

WingAbouts said...

Evolution has been proven false with the discovery of DNA. Sorry, I can’t back down from that statement. This is a very simple truth. Suppose you are in a Las Vegas casino playing roulette, on the first spin the ball lands on the number 4. The next spin, the ball lands on 4. The next = 4. The next = 4. You stay in the casino and witness the next million spins and each one lands on 4. At some point, you must begin to think that this is not a game of CHANCE.

Every single known living organism has the same sort of DNA. If chance were truly the mechanism for all the various life forms, there should be a staggering number of different “DNA” forms. Or at the very least, more than ONE! Yet, there is not.

Chance would indicate the existence of life forms so different that there wouldn’t even be something in them we could properly classify as DNA. Again, there is not. Because the same type of DNA is in all living organisms, we can rule out chance and instead, look for the cause of the design, i.e. the Creator.

I am so glad that you were able to find your way out of the false religion of the Mormon church. However, what you’ve settled on its place is not Truth. Evolution is just another false religion. Please reconsider looking at the references I provided for the truthfulness of the Bible and Jesus. If you’re really after the Truth, you can’t let your opinion of me stand in your way. Right?

Mormon411 said...

There you go again, claiming that evolution is religion. And even if it was a religion, you are very ignorant about what the "beliefs" are.

On the website Brad shared earlier is a FAQ section where the author addresses this question of evolution being a religion. He said:

"How so? It has no deity. No worship. No priests. No sabbath. No commandments. No inerrant doctrine-- it is constantly undergoing revision. It has no reliance on the supernatural or miracles. It has no penalties for unbelief. Belief in evolution carries no promises of reward. It is acceptable for any deity, including Jehovah, to be inserted in the forefront, taking credit for the progression of evolution. How, then, is evolution a religion? Are other scientific theories, such as the theory of relativity, also a religion? How does one distinguish and determine this?"

Erase this idea of "chance" out of your mind because evolution DOES NOT teach that it happened by chance (a biology degree holder would know this). Is English a second language for you because it seems that no matter how clearly I say it, you just don't seem to get it.

And the fact that all organisms share the same 4 letter alphabet and have the same genetic code (remember that 3 letter word I talked about earlier; the "word" for humans and the same "word" for bacteria both code for the same amino acid) highly suggests that we share a common ancestor.

The rest of your argument just makes no sense at all. By reproducing again and again, DNA would become so complicated that it would no longer be called DNA? WTF? Again, if I write a book, does that mean new letters in the Roman alphabet just start showing up? Your arguments are so silly that it's sad, and is only a further testament to how ignorant you are about how DNA works.

Where did you get your degree? Because I'll avoid that school like a plague!!!!!!!

Jesus is myth; he is a recycled diety from about a dozen earlier ones. Myth is not truth although it is entertaining. It has nothing to do with my opinion of you. Why would I allow such a trivial thing to determine such a major life choice?

I WAS willing to look at your material with the understanding that you would be open-minded enough to at least read an Evolution For Dummies book or something so you would have a basic understanding of it.

But if you come to me with the pre-determined conclusion that Jesus is Lord and make all your assumptions from there, then this discussion is pointless.

This is third or fourth time I have said these things and you just keep coming back with "Jesus is Lord! Jesus is Lord!"

You are not interested in truth.

"Evolution has been disproven".. Let me just say this. If evolution was disproven, then science would not believe in it. The claims you keep sharing have been made by uneducated, religious zealots who have no idea about the real issues. And a FEW scientists might agree with them, but on the whole, evolution is accepted as a scientific fact and anyone who claims otherwise is either lying or grossly misinformed.

Besides, you are religious. You don't operate on the basis of evidence and proof. You operate on the basis of faith. Seems funny to me how you will only accept "proof" when it works in your favor.

So again, educate yourself before you spout pseudo science, coz that's all you're doing, and no one here is impressed in the slightest.

Mormon411 said...

In your fiction book, your fiction god did a fiction miracle and that's all the proof you need!

Steven Bently said...

Common sense would dictate that the chances are a billion to 1 that someone told a lie as apposed to nature going out of it's way and changing it's course so a god could inseminate a virgin girl so he could have himself murdered to save people from their sins.

Mormon411 said...

Well said, Steven.